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Rogue Trader: training skills/ enhancing stats


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#41 Kshatriya

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:27 AM

 

Int makes sense in some ways, problems in others (particularly for the Void-Master). The VM doesn't necessarily make sense to have (or need) high Int to do its primary job, but making piloting a voidship key off Int probably requires the VM to have Int on the cheap (or at least medium), or be competing with really strange classes to fill the "best ship pilot" role.

 

 

Even if the VM had cheap int, it's a nerf because it adds another stat you need to keep high, and a stat you wouldn't gain much usefulness on that class outside voidship piloting.

 

I agree completely. This is a place where there's no quick, easy house rule, and in fact the baseline rule, while not being completely realistic, actually doesn't have a huge negative impact. So why change it?



#42 LordBlades

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:48 AM

 

 

Int makes sense in some ways, problems in others (particularly for the Void-Master). The VM doesn't necessarily make sense to have (or need) high Int to do its primary job, but making piloting a voidship key off Int probably requires the VM to have Int on the cheap (or at least medium), or be competing with really strange classes to fill the "best ship pilot" role.

 

 

Even if the VM had cheap int, it's a nerf because it adds another stat you need to keep high, and a stat you wouldn't gain much usefulness on that class outside voidship piloting.

 

I agree completely. This is a place where there's no quick, easy house rule, and in fact the baseline rule, while not being completely realistic, actually doesn't have a huge negative impact. So why change it?

 

 

I don't advocate changing it, on the contrary. My group discussed this exact same issues at the time I decided to roll the Tau Void-master I'm currently playing and decided against moving voidship piloting to Int for the aforementioned reasons.



#43 ZaelStarlocke

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:03 PM

On the point of long time periods to turn the ships, i have  no problem but one of my co-players is an ******* about precisely how thecombat between 2 or more voidships works. He keepson saying that when we fire, it takes up to a half hour for rounds to ravel and hit the other ship due to distance but that seems incredibly stupid as i have never heard of spacebattles constantly being that far away. I makes sense with ships nowadays all the way back to the late 1800s, but these are supposed to be epic space battles for frick sake. yes a VU is quite a bit of distance but really? heck, as a result of this, the people currently left on the ships to look after them have to skip several turns to compensate for the turns of the ground team which are much faster.Back to the flip belt, yeah, that was blatant writing abuse and frankley it's kinda out the window at this point. As for the "mech" or whatever it is at this point, I need to clear it up tonight, the GM says that since it is a device i'm technically wearing and not piloting, it is linked to MY movements and therefore only needs tech use to activate/calibrate after putting on, which can be done by my groups tech prest. I will try to get the info on this abnormal thing on here as soon as possible. anyway,perhaps there are alternate ways to increase agility though my weeaknesses are willpower and perception ( 25 and 23 if i remember. don't have sheet with em now) so Those i think i need to fix PRONTO to become decent.Although now i have that and also, i'm gonna have to make a new thread on Tech Herest, what qualifies as that, and aquisitions of certain items (because a certain member loves to combine different things which i think is 1: bull and 2: Tech Heresy)



#44 Chopper Greg

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:36 PM

Could you increase the size of the font - its so small I can't make it out.



#45 Ale Golem

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:14 PM

On the point of long time periods to turn the ships, i have  no problem but one of my co-players is an ******* about precisely how thecombat between 2 or more voidships works. He keepson saying that when we fire, it takes up to a half hour for rounds to ravel and hit the other ship due to distance but that seems incredibly stupid as i have never heard of spacebattles constantly being that far away. I makes sense with ships nowadays all the way back to the late 1800s, but these are supposed to be epic space battles for frick sake. yes a VU is quite a bit of distance but really? heck, as a result of this, the people currently left on the ships to look after them have to skip several turns to compensate for the turns of the ground team which are much faster.Back to the flip belt, yeah, that was blatant writing abuse and frankley it's kinda out the window at this point. As for the "mech" or whatever it is at this point, I need to clear it up tonight, the GM says that since it is a device i'm technically wearing and not piloting, it is linked to MY movements and therefore only needs tech use to activate/calibrate after putting on, which can be done by my groups tech prest. I will try to get the info on this abnormal thing on here as soon as possible. anyway,perhaps there are alternate ways to increase agility though my weeaknesses are willpower and perception ( 25 and 23 if i remember. don't have sheet with em now) so Those i think i need to fix PRONTO to become decent.Although now i have that and also, i'm gonna have to make a new thread on Tech Herest, what qualifies as that, and aquisitions of certain items (because a certain member loves to combine different things which i think is 1: bull and 2: Tech Heresy)

Fixed!



#46 ZaelStarlocke

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:17 PM

sorry, i have no idea why the font was so tiny. i set it to larger but i guess it didn't take :/



#47 Chopper Greg

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:05 PM

thanks



#48 Erathia

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:36 PM

Although now i have that and also, i'm gonna have to make a new thread on Tech Herest, what qualifies as that, and aquisitions of certain items (because a certain member loves to combine different things which i think is 1: bull and 2: Tech Heresy)

 

There have been debates on the forums about this, and I am of the camp that it is completely Tech-Heresy to experiment with ANYTHING in the 41st Millennium. You are meant to go and discover STCs, and then celebrate the rediscovery of lost archeotech (which admittedly tends to be better than anything we have now). The thought of taking what we already have and tinkering with it to combine it should be anathema to tech-priests, because the tiny magical spirits that live inside of the technology were never meant to be combined like that, and you're sinning against the Omnissiah by attempting it.

 

Naturally there will be many who think otherwise, and presumably very senior Ad-Mech members can do whatever they want, but they wouldn't even teach the idea that technology can be combined. Starting to think that way would be a huge leap forwards... or technically backwards.


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#49 Kshatriya

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:49 PM

IMO long time periods don't make fights epic, they make fights unrealistically long-winded and boring. Sometimes people need to step back from the rules and say "is this believable and also fun?" If not, why keep the 30-min duration of a VU turn (which actually has no in-game significance unless the GM wants to enforce a particular timer, and even then that timer needs to keep the stupid long turn time in mind).


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#50 ZaelStarlocke

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:55 PM

 

Although now i have that and also, i'm gonna have to make a new thread on Tech Herest, what qualifies as that, and aquisitions of certain items (because a certain member loves to combine different things which i think is 1: bull and 2: Tech Heresy)

 

There have been debates on the forums about this, and I am of the camp that it is completely Tech-Heresy to experiment with ANYTHING in the 41st Millennium. You are meant to go and discover STCs, and then celebrate the rediscovery of lost archeotech (which admittedly tends to be better than anything we have now). The thought of taking what we already have and tinkering with it to combine it should be anathema to tech-priests, because the tiny magical spirits that live inside of the technology were never meant to be combined like that, and you're sinning against the Omnissiah by attempting it.

 

Naturally there will be many who think otherwise, and presumably very senior Ad-Mech members can do whatever they want, but they wouldn't even teach the idea that technology can be combined. Starting to think that way would be a huge leap forwards... or technically backwards.

 

 

That's a shame. It means that I'm gonna most likely give up my awesome pistol (if it is heretech since this combining dude concocted it....if he didn't, hooray for me but still) although i think i will enjoy blowing a heretek out the airlock. Hell, i might even lose my "mech" on this...maybe.... also, my tech preist player should be calling this stuff, but i'm not sure if the player actually knows it's tech heresy. Anyway, how about aquisitions of a rare type (such as those thought to be only obtainable by SM or such?) Because i'm looking at ignatus pattern power armor but it's only available to the inquisition (at least it appears to be from the 40k wikia)



#51 Erathia

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:10 PM

 

IMO long time periods don't make fights epic, they make fights unrealistically long-winded and boring. Sometimes people need to step back from the rules and say "is this believable and also fun?" If not, why keep the 30-min duration of a VU turn (which actually has no in-game significance unless the GM wants to enforce a particular timer, and even then that timer needs to keep the stupid long turn time in mind).

 

The advantage to me of 30-minute long turns is that's how long it (approximately) takes to do a good Focused Augury of something. Thus an NPC scans an abandoned outpost, and she may or may not do well and report what she finds. The Astropath demands she scans again, but the Imperial Navy isn't willing to wait and dispatches boarding parties. Do they take the extra half hour to see if there are any surprises, but risk losing out on salvage, or charge blindly ahead?

 

Anyway, how about aquisitions of a rare type (such as those thought to be only obtainable by SM or such?) Because i'm looking at ignatus pattern power armor but it's only available to the inquisition (at least it appears to be from the 40k wikia)

 

Remember also that only the AdMech really knows whether or not something his Heretekal, so you could just be lied to by your Explorator who says that this is a super-rare Archeotech pistol, when in reality it's something he cobbled together. An actual Magos wouldn't care about that distinction, but knowledge is kept so carefully hoarded that with a successful bluff, other people might believe it as well.

 

Inquisition Only stuff would be similar. It's presumably based off of existing STC-patterns, so most people wouldn't know that it's meant to be Inquisitor-only. However that means if someone DOES know its origins, then they may demand it back, or think you murdered an Inquisitor to get it, and behave appropriately. I generally disallow acquiring Space Marine gear because they're not scaled for human use, though one of my players once did try to acquire a suit of Space Marine Power Armour so that he could try and return it to the correct chapter to get in good with them.


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#52 LordBlades

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 04:50 AM

IMO long time periods don't make fights epic, they make fights unrealistically long-winded and boring. Sometimes people need to step back from the rules and say "is this believable and also fun?" If not, why keep the 30-min duration of a VU turn (which actually has no in-game significance unless the GM wants to enforce a particular timer, and even then that timer needs to keep the stupid long turn time in mind).

 

While 30 min turns are a bit of a stretch, WH 40k ships are slow and cumbersome in fluff.

 

For example I recall a scene from 'Tome of Fire' trilogy (3rd volume I think) where a Salamanders Battle Barge makes a 45 to 90 degrees turn (no idea what's a Prow gun's firing arc in fluff) to bring it's Prow Nova Cannon to bear on a new target. During the turn, it gets hit by several salvos (3-4 IIRC) from the same ship. Assuming a ROF of 1-2 rounds per minute (similar to WW2 Battleship guns), that still puts a Battle Barge's turning time in the range of several minutes (probably 5-10 minutes for a full 180 degrees turn). Still, long enough to make helmsman's agility irrelevant IMO.


Edited by LordBlades, 11 January 2014 - 04:50 AM.

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#53 Erathia

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 11:22 AM

I sometimes think that Piloting tests should be based off of Command rather than Agility, because it is probably an effort of coordinating the thousands of slaves manning the engine decks, but then that would give the Void Master even less to do.


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#54 Kshatriya

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

The fluff may make Agility irrelevant. Changing the crunch makes the whole career much less relevant. The latter is worse than the former.


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#55 Nameless2all

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:53 AM

Int makes sense in some ways, problems in others (particularly for the Void-Master). The VM doesn't necessarily make sense to have (or need) high Int to do its primary job, but making piloting a voidship key off Int probably requires the VM to have Int on the cheap (or at least medium), or be competing with really strange classes to fill the "best ship pilot" role.

I'm not changing any rules..... yet.....  But an idea did cross my mind while reading this.  Maybe the VM can have a special talent that allows him to use Agility instead of Int for certain skills and/or actions.  This can be a result of his natural intuition of flight mechanics, gravity, etc, as it's more second nature to him then the regular helmsmen.  More of a gut instinct of "this feels right," rather than "I know X thruster needs Y ratio for C seconds to complete this turn faster."  Just food for thought.


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#56 Kshatriya

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:38 PM

No offense, I can't help but see that as an air-breathing mermaid situation.



#57 venkelos

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 10:35 AM

Not particularly fond of changing Attributes/Characteristics for relevant checks; it usually feels like someone just trying to min-max. No accusations here, but I like to believe that SOMEONE (who might've been overridden 9/10 times by the others) working on the design team tried to make each Characteristic have its fair share of uses, in different aspects of the game. Sometimes, this flops:

 

Orks in D&D 3.0/3.5 take considerable Charisma penalties, as do Jaffa in Stargate SG-1 RPG. Both cases suffered from a fact that, while being heinously intimidating, and known for their terrible wraths, any attempt to actually MAKE an Intimidate check was doomed to fail, as the -4 to -6 Charisma penalty crippled this, and every other Charisma-based skill they might have. D&D made a feat that allows the user to sub Strength bonus for Charisma bonus, for Intimidation checks, while Stargate just said that Intimidation's relevant skill was either Strength OR Charisma, player's choice. I liked both of these, more the later one.

 

Still, having played Saga Star wars enough, sometimes I actually didn't want to see yet one more talent that let the Force-user sub Use the Force for yet another skill. Here, I'm not sure. Yeah, a huge ship moves because you pushed a button, not because your reaction time is amazing, and knowing WHICH button to press is more important than how fast you pushed it, but Piloting ANYTHING often resolves to be your reaction time; in a fighter, that would matter, and since they usually try not to shift the mechanics any more than possible, EVERYTHING else gets the same rule. Would a shoulder-mounted plasma caster on a Predator's arm still use Dexterity in d20, or switch to Intelligence, as it is a computer-operated piece of hardware?

 

Usually, the Void Master is built for piloting, and built to get Agility; it's their Characteristic of choice, I'd guess. Better to leave it so that they work. That's my opinion, anyway. my story Void Master, Arin Trenn, makes his way in the galaxy defending the Passage of Judgment from attacks in his fighter craft, along with the rest of the Emperor's Pauldrons squadron. I don't particularly see him as very bright, beyond growing up around ships. Like so many, he only knows as much as the Tech-Priests tell him, and doesn't do the time-honored practice in other canons of tinkering with his own ship. His reaction time, however, is top-notch.


Edited by venkelos, 15 January 2014 - 10:39 AM.

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