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Rogue Trader: training skills/ enhancing stats


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#21 Kshatriya

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

 

I probably would not allow an MIU to interface with a piece of xenos gear like a flip belt. Completely incompatible technology systems.

 

 

You should probably be able to get an Eldar version of MIU. MIUs are such universally useful devices that I highly doubt most races wouldn't have developed their own equivalent.

 

Eldar don't use implants the way humans do. They simply interact through their systems using their psychic abilities rather than through cords and plugs. I would fully expect there to be no MIU-equivalent for Eldar. 



#22 Kshatriya

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:35 PM

Do you mean like a Battlemech? If so then I would rule that a flip belt would not help you one little bit! Flip belts serve to enhance the wearers agility thus allowing them to do anime like acrobatics and such! Allowing them to enhance piloting a mech (Assuming you could find such a piece of archeotech) is an abuse of the rules! That said, While I know of know good visual images of it, The AdMech sometimes fields a device called a "Knight". This is essentially a mini-titan who's description seems somewhat similar to a medium class battlemech!

It's not an abuse of the rules, it's sloppy/lazy rules-writing on the part of the book authors. By the RAW yes, a flip belt stupidly gives you a bonus to piloting your battleship. Somehow. The item probably should have read "+20 to all Agility-based tests except those using the Drive and Pilot skills." That would let it cover straight agility rolls, concealment, silent move, acrobatics, dodge, etc, all of which make sense to be boosted by an antigrav belt.



#23 Chopper Greg

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:43 PM

It's not an abuse of the rules, it's sloppy/lazy rules-writing on the part of the book authors. By the RAW yes, a flip belt stupidly gives you a bonus to piloting your battleship. Somehow. The item probably should have read "+20 to all Agility-based tests except those using the Drive and Pilot skills." That would let it cover straight agility rolls, concealment, silent move, acrobatics, dodge, etc, all of which make sense to be boosted by an antigrav belt.

 

 

 

While I would not let a flip-belt boost agility for tests with piloting a ship, I would allow it to boost agility for tests with piloting something with that requires Pilot ( Personal ) skill like jetpacks and glide wings, as those things generally require balance for use. 



#24 Amazing Larry

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:48 AM

I wouldn't say it's so much an abuse of the rules if it happens so much as it would be abuse of an overly permissive GM. That's one of those cases where you have to step in and enforce the spirit of the rules rather than the written letter.



#25 LordBlades

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:57 AM

I wouldn't say it's so much an abuse of the rules if it happens so much as it would be abuse of an overly permissive GM. That's one of those cases where you have to step in and enforce the spirit of the rules rather than the written letter.


The problem IMO is not with the Flip Belt but with the Pilot skill. What does piloting something that's several km long and takes 30 min to turn 45 deg has to do with agility?

Edited by LordBlades, 05 January 2014 - 05:45 AM.

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#26 Fgdsfg

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:53 AM

 

I wouldn't say it's so much an abuse of the rules if it happens so much as it would be abuse of an overly permissive GM. That's one of those cases where you have to step in and enforce the spirit of the rules rather than the written letter.


The problem IMO is not with the Flip Belt but with the Pilot skill. What does piloting something that's several km long and takes 30 min to turn 45 deg has to do with agility?

 

So much this. The Operate/Pilot skills in WH40kRP have always tended towards being a clusterfuck. Worst is that there's no reason for it to be that way.

Piloting a large Voidship should clearly be either Intelligence or Fellowship, depending on the ship and the manner you control it.


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#27 Tenebrae

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:29 AM

 

 

I wouldn't say it's so much an abuse of the rules if it happens so much as it would be abuse of an overly permissive GM. That's one of those cases where you have to step in and enforce the spirit of the rules rather than the written letter.


The problem IMO is not with the Flip Belt but with the Pilot skill. What does piloting something that's several km long and takes 30 min to turn 45 deg has to do with agility?

 

So much this. The Operate/Pilot skills in WH40kRP have always tended towards being a clusterfuck. Worst is that there's no reason for it to be that way.

Piloting a large Voidship should clearly be either Intelligence or Fellowship, depending on the ship and the manner you control it.

 

BC had Pilot Void Craft based on Intelligence, then, come OW, it was back at Ag. :(



#28 LordBlades

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:38 AM

 

Piloting a large Voidship should clearly be either Intelligence or Fellowship, depending on the ship and the manner you control it.

 

 

As a side-note, while I do agree a pilot/operate (voidship) skill would be better keyed off Int, houseruling it as such is a pretty big Void-master nerf. Even if you change his Int. advancement to cheapest (it's currently most expensive), it still adds another stat he needs to keep high (and a stat he doesn't get that much benefit from anyway) and odds are most people would find a Seneschal (you can get any skill +10 and talented at character creation with the right origin path)  a more viable voidship pilot build than a Void-master.


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#29 Fgdsfg

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:50 AM

 

 

Piloting a large Voidship should clearly be either Intelligence or Fellowship, depending on the ship and the manner you control it.

 

 

As a side-note, while I do agree a pilot/operate (voidship) skill would be better keyed off Int, houseruling it as such is a pretty big Void-master nerf. Even if you change his Int. advancement to cheapest (it's currently most expensive), it still adds another stat he needs to keep high (and a stat he doesn't get that much benefit from anyway) and odds are most people would find a Seneschal (you can get any skill +10 and talented at character creation with the right origin path)  a more viable voidship pilot build than a Void-master.

Oh, I agree, but that's an issue with how the character advancement works in Rogue Trader and what roles certain characters are assumed to fill. The Voidmaster is schizophrenic in the way he's portrayed as a Admiral/Fighter-Pilot.


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These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#30 Kshatriya

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:02 PM

It makes sense for a fighter pilot to mostly be Agility-based, with hair-trigger reflexes. It also kind of makes sense if you view giant ships as being kind of Age of Sail-equivalent and having to haul the giant wheel around (also makes me think of the scenes of piloting a Garden in Final Fantasy VIII).

 

I might make that more of the helmsman's station in the future rather than anything neat and clean like the con on a Star Trek/Star Wars ship. It would at least justify use of Agility better. 



#31 Amazing Larry

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:43 PM

I think the rationale behind making it agility is based on the idea that it's a very training, instinct and muscle memory intensive skillset so when you're doing it well you no more think about it than the centipede thinks about moving all his legs. Also if you make it Intelligence you open up the can of worms regarding what intelligence actually means in game mechanics. Does it refer specifically to actual intelligence or does it refer to a combination of intelligence and education level? If it's the former how do you increase it with (XP) training?

 

I've got a character with an Intelligenece of 27 but nothing else about his background or skillset would suggest he should be some sort of drooling moron who can somehow operate any gun he finds but can't drive a truck without flipping it. So typically I just assume he's got the equivilent of an eighth grade education which fits with his homeworld, I often express this by playing his as posessing poor impulse control, having him mispronounce words he reads or failing to comprehend really complicated intellectual concepts but being clever enough to trick people through underhanded methods or demonstrate tactical thinking and "street smarts".

 

I think it makes sense that the Voidmaster makes his ship pilot tests based off agility the idea being he's experienced enough behind the con that he has a feel for the old girl, the tactics employed as to where he flies it and what everyone else does along the way fall under the umbrella of actual role play.


Edited by Amazing Larry, 05 January 2014 - 01:45 PM.

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#32 LordBlades

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 01:43 PM

It makes sense for a fighter pilot to mostly be Agility-based, with hair-trigger reflexes. It also kind of makes sense if you view giant ships as being kind of Age of Sail-equivalent and having to haul the giant wheel around (also makes me think of the scenes of piloting a Garden in Final Fantasy VIII).

 

I might make that more of the helmsman's station in the future rather than anything neat and clean like the con on a Star Trek/Star Wars ship. It would at least justify use of Agility better. 

Still, it takes 2 hours for most voidships to complete a run of the mill 180 degrees turn. Even if it takes you 10 minutes to spin the wheel, you're just turning in 130 minutes instead of 120 minutes, so not really plausible to justify the use of agility by that.


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#33 Kshatriya

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:28 PM

 

It makes sense for a fighter pilot to mostly be Agility-based, with hair-trigger reflexes. It also kind of makes sense if you view giant ships as being kind of Age of Sail-equivalent and having to haul the giant wheel around (also makes me think of the scenes of piloting a Garden in Final Fantasy VIII).

 

I might make that more of the helmsman's station in the future rather than anything neat and clean like the con on a Star Trek/Star Wars ship. It would at least justify use of Agility better. 

Still, it takes 2 hours for most voidships to complete a run of the mill 180 degrees turn. Even if it takes you 10 minutes to spin the wheel, you're just turning in 130 minutes instead of 120 minutes, so not really plausible to justify the use of agility by that.

 

At the same time, there is absolutely nothing fun about those kind of strict, stupidly-long timing rules. 


Edited by Kshatriya, 05 January 2014 - 02:31 PM.


#34 Erathia

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:35 PM

Imperial voidships are pretty damn big, the large turning time is probably to compensate for gradually shifting the kilometers of metal without accidentally snapping the vessel in half. Presumably the need for piloting during Come to a New Heading or another complex action is to be able to push your vessel beyond what is normally safe, and react instantly to the stress that it's going under to ease off the pressure at just the right moments without sacrificing what you're trying to do.


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#35 Tenebrae

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:44 PM

At the same time, there is absolutely nothing fun about those kind of strict, stupidly-long timing rules. 

Your opinion. I rather enjoy the aestethics of those nail-biting turns.


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#36 Kshatriya

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:44 PM

Haha. I just can't see it being that fun to remind players that their one action took so long. It takes something out of the harrying ship-to-ship firefight if every maneuver takes half a day.



#37 Radwraith

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:15 PM

I have "houseruled" that Pilot voidship is an intelligence based skill as in BC (It makes more sense!). As stated above, Piloting a voidship is a balance of applied physics as it applies to moving and fighting in a flying city! Also as it also takes 30 minute turns, it seems to me that there is plenty of time to think of what you're doing! Even if one decided they were only 3 minute turns it would be the same thing!



#38 Kshatriya

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:43 PM

Int makes sense in some ways, problems in others (particularly for the Void-Master). The VM doesn't necessarily make sense to have (or need) high Int to do its primary job, but making piloting a voidship key off Int probably requires the VM to have Int on the cheap (or at least medium), or be competing with really strange classes to fill the "best ship pilot" role.


Edited by Kshatriya, 05 January 2014 - 09:45 PM.


#39 LordBlades

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:05 AM

Int makes sense in some ways, problems in others (particularly for the Void-Master). The VM doesn't necessarily make sense to have (or need) high Int to do its primary job, but making piloting a voidship key off Int probably requires the VM to have Int on the cheap (or at least medium), or be competing with really strange classes to fill the "best ship pilot" role.

 

 

Even if the VM had cheap int, it's a nerf because it adds another stat you need to keep high, and a stat you wouldn't gain much usefulness on that class outside voidship piloting.



#40 Amazing Larry

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:05 AM

Like I said before if you look at 75% of Int based skills  they're things that are probably more education centric than demonstrative of cognative superiority. Hell look at the Mechanicus implant that increases intellignece if you really examine what it's doing per how it's written it's basically just giving him total recall regarding technical specs, blueprints and an encycopedial it's not actually making him smarter. It's just making it so he very rarely if ever has to crack open an actual book to know what the hell he's doing. It's like the difference between having a brain that can calculate pi to the hundredth place as opposed to just having a calculator wired into your head that you can control by thought.

 

So I say it again, the Int stat in alot of ways probably has more to do with education than an actual inate talent.






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