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Polish FAQ 3.0


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#41 Doc9

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:46 PM




"That shows exactly what i though : players cant do a FAQ"

I think that the developers and play testers were likely players as well. So, players can do an FAQ. Besides, it's all optional. Don't like it? Don't use it.

Edited by Doc9, 03 January 2014 - 04:47 PM.

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#42 gertat

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:08 PM

I have only the last part - Frequently asked questions - to copy to make a word document of your FAQ.

So if you have problems with the filés you can have that one to get you started??
If it helps?

#43 Gnomeschool

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:00 PM

As for desertion: Yeah, for the neutral factions, that's a hard one. The question is, if players want to include this card for 4 of 10 matchups. So I'm not sure if it's too good at the moment. But I agree, that it is a card that has to be observed in next time.

 

Personally I think, that Paranoia is even more important to change due to the neutral factions. That card can be good against standard races too and is a 1 cost kill for any unit in a neutral deck.



#44 Virgo

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:01 AM

Our forum is back!

 

Minor correction for Valley of Many Eyes: Forced: When another card enters this zone. Of course Valley doesn't trigger itself (like Greatswords do).



#45 Gnomeschool

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:45 AM

As for the valley - didn't you think it is to risky like this? As when playing against empire this is pretty much a card you never want to play.



#46 Virgo

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:49 AM

I think now it works as intended, doesn't matter from where cards enter "The Valley" there is always risk that it won't survive the visit.

Orc supports are always tricky against Empire: Squig Pen ->Verena, One Orc's Scrap ->sacrifice developments ->Verena, Valley of Many Eyes ->may destroy developments, Wilhelm "chases" units into the Valley. I didn't even mention Hidden Grove...


Edited by Virgo, 04 January 2014 - 11:59 AM.

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#47 Gnomeschool

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 01:41 PM

Why not simply change "destroy" in "cancel and discard"?

I think this would be very near to the original wording.



#48 Virgo

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:31 PM

We went the route suggested by FFG errata (valley triggering of cards entering the zone). Also if we did what you suggested Ritual, Raise Dead and Liber Mortis would play around valley (put into play=/play). Yeah I know this is probably the worst worded card in Warhammer: Invasion.



#49 gr4ffi

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:32 AM

We should get in touch soonish, I will bring up this subject on FAQ team forum.

 

We didn't restrict orcs (especially Wurrzag) because they were constantly loosing to DE (especially Crone). Invasion on the list would probably kill off this card, people on our boards were mentioning Ritual (and Stand for Dwarves, I would also add Seeds to this).

Time will tell.

 

DE constantly loosing to Orc seems to be a polish thing. From my experience Orc Wurrzag and DE Crone were equally strong. I think with this DE focused restriction you are ignoring some opinions and tournament results. Also, isn't it better to not put that much stuff on the list? I mean... as you said, it comes a point when you practically begin to kill off cards.

 

Some thoughts:

- Cards could be altered to get them off the list. For example Reclaim the Fallen (Units don't count as dwarf units when sacrificed at the end of the phase). I mean, RTF is dead basically. Nobody chooses it. Maybe that would free Ranger too and you could restrict SYG if you wanted to.

- Seeds is strong but Chaos is too weak and slow right now.

- I would welcome Ritual on the List. Wurrzag with 3 Rituals/Grimgor was extremely devastating as seen in worlds. It constantly clears the boards and it gives huge economy. Wurrzag is strong enough with vomits and pillage! Also this would maybe provide some alternative to Wurrzag. Standard Decks with Ritual and Vomit.



#50 Virgo

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:38 AM

We didn't ignore polish results  ;)

Orc Wurrzag was strongest at our European Championships (shaman, horde and innovation in one deck) yet still final was DE vs DE. Recently DE won regionals in January. Last time Orc deck won in Poland was March 2013, when FAQ 2.0 hit something like 3 days before tournament and people had little time to prepare. If i remember correctly you won against Gardine at your championships and you were quite suprised the same didn't happen at USA  :P

 

Thanks for your thoughts, I postem them on the FAQ team forums.

 

- while I agree some cards can be altered it leads to the point when we can just errata every restricted card t and remove the whole list altogether.

 

- chaos is slow? Camps allows you to develop your economy while destroying your opponents economy, also Horrors are a great early drop, combined with six 0-cost units in the deck (Spawn, Prince) Blood Summoning is also great.

 

- actually there wers quite few standard orc decks at our last regional, people still had Ritual and Vomit along with the Horde, Dark Acolyte goes well with Bloodthirster in discard after Rip/Scrap.



#51 Maik

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:51 AM


That shows exactly what i thought : players cant do a FAQ

 

 

I'm not sure that's true in general, but I think we both agree that these players can't do a FAQ.

 

Anyway, after a couple of more games with Hidden Kingdom cards, my stance at the moment is that it's still far too early for any changes to the meta, even if they were carried out in a more responsible way. 'Standard' decks, especially those based on Wurrzag and Hellebron, are generally weakened through Corb Polybog, and DE mill decks take specific hits from the rebirth of Undead and, perhaps, from Wood Elves recursion with Wildwood Grove.

 

Let's see how the meta shakes out with the four new factions before altering the rules and creating regional houserules; at the moment there's no obviously overpowered combo, so turn your creativity towards deckbuilding instead of rule tweaking.



#52 Maik

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:59 AM

As for desertion: Yeah, for the neutral factions, that's a hard one. The question is, if players want to include this card for 4 of 10 matchups. So I'm not sure if it's too good at the moment. But I agree, that it is a card that has to be observed in next time.

 

Personally I think, that Paranoia is even more important to change due to the neutral factions. That card can be good against standard races too and is a 1 cost kill for any unit in a neutral deck.

 

Desertion is a hard one, and that's good, I feel. Play some games against Undead opening with Drakenhof Castle (or worse, Remote Monastery) in Kingdom and Vlad in the next turn. This is already pretty strong, and once Undead players have a bit more experience and tuned their decks, we'll be happy to have a silver bullet against this setup.

 

As far as I can tell, Paranoia is not played a lot at tournaments, and as an attachment it is naturally vulnerable. And technically, it's not a kill, the afflicted unit will just be very lonely in its zone ;)

 

Again, I'd prefer for everyone to get a bit of experience with the new meta before folks go around changing stuff.



#53 Virgo

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:39 AM

 

I'm not sure that's true in general, but I think we both agree that these players can't do a FAQ.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

Maik have you already tested that Undead or WE are hard counters to Crone decks? I'm especially curious how adding hp to the capital with Wildwood Grove helps you against milling.


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#54 Maik

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 08:18 AM


Maik have you already tested that Undead or WE are hard counters to Crone decks? I'm especially curious how adding hp to the capital with Wildwood Grove helps you against milling.

 

 

No proper tests yet, and I would not go as far as calling it a hard counter without that. However, I'm quite sure that mill decks are weakened against Undead, with the following reasoning:

Milling hurts you because a) your opponent wins when your deck is emptied and b) you are losing cards that might have been crucial to your plans. For the Undead, b) is clearly less of a concern, since there are a lot of cards you'd rather see on your discard than in your deck or even in your hand. And Necromancy moves cards from discard to deck and thus obviously weakens the impact of a). So in my eyes, it is rather obvious that milling decks will have a harder time in a meta with Undead than in one without it.

 

For the Wood Elves, the effect is certainly less strong and might not be important at all if they turn out to be still too weak to make tournament grade. But it goes like this: with Wildwood Grove and cards like Abandoned Mine, Long Winter and Pageant of Strikes, you can recycle cards from the discard to your hand, so the effect of b) is diminished. You can also put Ambush cards directly where you need them: as developments on the table. There is no direct mitigation of a), admittedly, except that you might need less card draws when you can play devs from discard. Going out on a rather speculative branch, a deck that treats its developments as a second hand (with the cards mentioned above) can afford to be bigger than 50 cards, which would also be bad news for mill decks.

 

To summarize: Undead are clearly more impervious to mill decks, Wood Elves might be. The first statement can be made wihout tests, and the second is not much of a statement, really ;)



#55 Virgo

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:49 AM

Can you post examples of cards which played using Necromancy would threaten DE capital board?

 

About Wildwood Grove: I was assuming you would say Long Winter, Pageant of Shrikes. Abandonde Mine is too expensive to be tournament viable. Let's say every turn with Crone deck you're loosing at least 2 cards. One can be recovered using Grove and Long Winter at the cost of the card from hand. Playing Pageant on yourself costs you a card and resources also you have to return 3 developments if the DE player isn't playing any.



#56 gr4ffi

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:55 AM

@Virgo:

 

DE might have had an advantage over Orcs which could be the reason not many Orcs won your tournaments although you had plenty in the tops. But i think after this FAQ it will still be a pain to play against Wurrzag for all other races. I came to sense that it is not healthy to have mass Invasions and being able to clear them at any time. It might be a problem of balance but it is maybe more a problem for the game feeling and fun. Of course at the same time you don't want to effectively ban Snotling Invasion. We will see what polish meta will be like after your faq goes official. Iam very curious :)

 

Cards should of course only be altered in order to lower complexity in the faq. For example: If one simple alteration does free 2 cards from the list it might be a great deal.

 

Yes, i think Chaos is slow! With one of my DE decks but also with one of my Orc decks it was no problem to beat down Chaos multiple times in tournaments and in casual. And i think that the Dwarves or even the Empire is not that easy to beat! But this is only my opinion. Metas are different.

 

I did not win against Gardine, but my final opponent did ;) The Orcs destroyed each other. Most of the time i thought that Orcs would win against my deck if they are starting the game. But i started in the final of german championship and it went 2:1 in my favour. Gardine started at worlds against me and won 2:1...

 

Yes, i would like to stay in touch. I can speak for a small group of players from germany when i say that we would like to work together with the polish comunity on the development of the faq and the future of WHI :)


Edited by gr4ffi, 09 January 2014 - 07:59 AM.


#57 Virgo

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 09:36 AM

1 Yeah, Orcs and DE could beat chaos, but it doesn't mean chaos is slow  :P

2 Actually dwarfs are listed as second best now by some players  ;)



#58 Maik

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 04:28 AM

As a funny conclusion to this thread (this will be my last post here, anyway), here are some results from the Polish Regional at Cracow this weekend, using the carefully balanced FAQ 3.0:

 

With 39 player, the best of 3 Dark Elven decks ended at place 21. The worst of 8 Skaven decks ended at place 14. The winning deck was Skaven, and the winner was ... (drum roll) ... Virgo!

 

Mission accomplished, I'd say.


Edited by Maik, 19 January 2014 - 04:28 AM.


#59 cparadis

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 11:24 AM

If these results are correct, this is a very, very bad sign. Not sure it is an indictment of the FAQ though.


Edited by cparadis, 19 January 2014 - 06:53 PM.


#60 Virgo

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:01 PM

As a funny conclusion to this thread (this will be my last post here, anyway), here are some results from the Polish Regional at Cracow this weekend, using the carefully balanced FAQ 3.0:

 

With 39 player, the best of 3 Dark Elven decks ended at place 21. The worst of 8 Skaven decks ended at place 14. The winning deck was Skaven, and the winner was ... (drum roll) ... Virgo!

 

Mission accomplished, I'd say.

Yep, Skaven are tournament viable (albeit the card pool is limited and the race is one trick pony - rush) unlike other neutral factions. Maybe with addition of some new cards in the future...time will tell :)






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