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Polish FAQ 3.0


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#1 Virgo

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 01:58 PM

In three parts and interactive  :lol:
 

http://whinvasion.pl....php?f=4&t=3382

http://whinvasion.pl....php?f=4&t=3384

http://whinvasion.pl....php?f=4&t=3385

 

Tell us guys what you think, I will try to explain every change and our reasonings.


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#2 gertat

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 04:41 PM

Great work
Shall read trough them more later but for now I registered the Skaven only on Warstone Excavation

Will there be a printable version?

Edited by gertat, 27 December 2013 - 04:43 PM.


#3 Virgo

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

Also as always one thing was forgotten:

 

Summons of Chaos is Chaos only. It is now added to the links (one of the prons of FAQ being in forum topics is the fact you could fix spelling mistakes and such things).

 

The printable version you say? Like pdf one? Maybe cparadis will do something like this.

 

Because right now you could write most of the things into existing FAQ and print only some really new things. Or even copy/paste from the links into Word, change font to Comic Sans MS and print everything  :P


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#4 meggypeggs

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 10:54 AM

This is great stuff.

 

Thank you!

 

:)



#5 Virgo

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:26 PM

No one is asking why the Clawleader got errata?  :P

 

It seems no one on these boards noticed that the original card text doesn't mention from where the card is put into play. We could assume that it should be form hand, but as the card needed errata anyways we only this time took liberty of fixing Clawleader effect which wasn't that good anyways. Using him would add token on Hekarti every turn. So he ended as kind of Necromancy effect that have some synergy between dead skaven 2 cost units (many have only 1 hp) and Shattered Tower (don't know who thought that a 3 cost 1 power unique support for race with 2 power in kingdom is a good idea). So that's it. Rest is mostly adjusting FAQ to new DE cards from Cataclysm and Hidden Kingdoms. Also some questions from Deckbox Rules Summary, some examples and some rulings on the top.


Edited by Virgo, 28 December 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#6 flipperlord

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 10:36 PM

This is just me being ignorant, but why a separate FAQ? I'm sure you have a good reason, (and after reading it, I like this FAQ better than FFG's haha) and I want to know what that reason is. :)



#7 Virgo

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:08 AM

We agreed that 3 parts are more user friendly.



#8 Rodzyn

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:14 AM

@Virgo - i have a feeling that flipperlord has sth different in mind:P Why separate FAQ? cause FFG stated that they will no longer support the game, and while this is "unfortunate" there are still a lot of players in Poland, who participate in tournaments - without fast response (new FAQ) that play experience wouldn't be satisfying.

or maybe i am just misreading this question?:P


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#9 Doc9

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:41 AM

Great work. I especially love the new Warpstone Excavation!

#10 Gnomeschool

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:53 PM

Thanks for sharing. How many players have been involved?

Here are some things I'd like to say or ask:

 

1.) Please use "hit points" instead of "hp". Acronyms normally are rather confusing than useful.

 

 

2.) Ambush: Maybe add an explanation if ambushing a card is an action, and if players may play something in response (especially in case of a ambush tactic).

 

 

3.) Still no clarification of Toxic Hydra - would like to have one. : )

 

 

4.)"Soul Stealer
Q. If a unit already has Soulstealer on it, and I play a 2nd Soulstealer onto that unit who controls it?
A. If you play Soul Stealer on a unit that has already been stolen, then your effect and your opponent's effect cancel each other out and you will regain control of the unit."

 

I've already explained in another post why I think this can't be right... I'd like to know what you guys think about it.

(http://community.fan...l-faq/?p=926914)

 

 

5.) "Undead player decides the order of the discarded cards."

 

Why this one? Discarding cards normally occurs in a fixed order.


Edited by Gnomeschool, 29 December 2013 - 12:54 PM.


#11 Virgo

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:24 PM

7 players were involved, two were FFG testers.
 
1 Ok, I will change this.
 
2 Actions may be taken by either player. 

Ambush abilities may be triggered. 
Actions may be taken by either player. 

 

You can't respond to ambush.

 

3 Combat 

Q. If I play a card like Waaagh! or use an action like Grudge Thrower before combat, do I get the bonus? 
A. Yes, that kind of action creates a continuous effect that waits for the appropriate time to give the bonus. Scions of Misery and Toxic Hydra also create a constant effect that lasts until the end of the turn.

 

4 We didn't change anything about it because it is FFG ruling.

 

5 On the contrary:

Entering the Discard Pile (v1.1) 
When multiple cards enter a player’s discard pile at the same time, the owner of those cards may determine the order those cards enter the discard pile.



#12 meggypeggs

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:26 PM

Great work. I especially love the new Warpstone Excavation!

 

Skaven only!

 

My corruption Chaos deck just got a little weaker...  :(



#13 meggypeggs

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:27 PM

 

Great work. I especially love the new Warpstone Excavation!

 

Skaven only!

 

My corruption Chaos deck just got a little weaker...  :(

 

I would have preferred it to be Destruction only  ;)

 



#14 Virgo

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:31 PM

Meggypegs you're missing one Warpstone Excavation? Blood Summoning? ;)



#15 Gnomeschool

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:41 PM

7 players were involved, two were FFG testers.
 
1 Ok, I will change this.
 
2 Actions may be taken by either player. 

Ambush abilities may be triggered. 
Actions may be taken by either player. 

 

You can't respond to ambush.

 

3 Combat 

Q. If I play a card like Waaagh! or use an action like Grudge Thrower before combat, do I get the bonus? 
A. Yes, that kind of action creates a continuous effect that waits for the appropriate time to give the bonus. Scions of Misery and Toxic Hydra also create a constant effect that lasts until the end of the turn.

 

4 We didn't change anything about it because it is FFG ruling.

 

5 On the contrary:

Entering the Discard Pile (v1.1) 
When multiple cards enter a player’s discard pile at the same time, the owner of those cards may determine the order those cards enter the discard pile.

 

2.) I know, but I think some players do not. I just think it would be good, if it was said in the ambush section, because that's where those players would look for it.

 

3.) Yeah, I've read that. But it's not that clear in that sentence. All you're determining there is, that those cards have an effect that lasts until the end of the turn. But that does not really answer the question, if units, that enter that zone later, are affected by those effects.

I understand what you wanted to say there, but I want things to be clear for everyone.

Just add something like "Therefore, units, that enter the zone later in that turn, will be affected by those effects too" - then everybody will know how to play these cards.

 

4.) Well, I could say that everything you've changed had been FFG ruling before ... so that isn't the best argument. But I see what you mean, and obviously, this isn't one of the most important rule questions after all. ; )

Though, something have to be done to the "illegal game state" paragraph someday, because it's contrary to the Sellswords rules questions.

 

5.) Didn't know that in this context. I've always been discarding cards for bats and stuff just how they came from my deck. Good to know.


Edited by Gnomeschool, 29 December 2013 - 02:44 PM.


#16 flipperlord

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:34 PM

@Virgo - i have a feeling that flipperlord has sth different in mind:P Why separate FAQ? cause FFG stated that they will no longer support the game, and while this is "unfortunate" there are still a lot of players in Poland, who participate in tournaments - without fast response (new FAQ) that play experience wouldn't be satisfying.

or maybe i am just misreading this question? :P

You got it! Thanks for the answer! :)



#17 Maik

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:44 AM

Before giving specific remarks, I should start by describing my general expectations for an unofficial FAQ: to be accepted by the player community and thus become more than a house rule, the aim should be to change as little as possible, only clarifying things that are in dispute and nerfing obviously strong and/or unfun cards or card combos. Strengthening any card or faction should be done rarely if at all, and only if there is a lot of collective experience that definitely shows the need for such a boost.

 

In the light of this, nerfing Dark Elves mill decks is a good thing to do, even if you may have gone a bit too far with restricting both the Crone and Call of the Kraken in addition to the totally necessary Limitation on the Barbed Snares. Summons of Chaos was probably changed to prevent cheap Vlad von Carstein combos, also a good thing to do. I'm also fine with the limits on both Artefacts.

 

What wrecks the whole thing is the massive boost you gave to Skavens, a faction that was just recently expanded with a bunch of pretty strong cards anyway. Going from bad to worst, here are your changes:

Reversing the change on Deathmaster Sniktch is not dramatic, but to do this right after the Rat Swarms have strengthened him anyway seems curious. Still, this could be excused as a simplification, cause you are going back to the printed card text.

There is no such excuse for the Clawleader, where you elected to ‘fix’ a card that has barely been published by boosting its effect considerably. Recursion is immensely powerful in WHI, and giving a 2 cost unit the potential to provide endless fuel for Slave Pens or Daemon Princes seems careless to me.

This pales, however, when compared with what you did with Warpstone Excavation. Let’s remember limiting this card to 1 copy per deck was regarded as a healthy and necessary change to the meta, because this was an auto-include in almost every tournament deck before. So you’ve decided to reverse that ruling and give an obviously overpowered card exclusively to one of the two factions where its ability is more of a benefit than a handicap. And coincidentally, it’s the same faction that already received two other boosts.

 

I’m sorry, but this is so bad that it invalidates all the sensible changes you’ve made, and it relegates your work to the status of house rules for Skaven fanboys, instead of something that could strengthen the community.

My advice is to retract this immediately and restrict your work to things that really need to be changed instead of playing developers.



#18 Virgo

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:24 AM

@Gnomeschool

2 We don't want to add a lot of things that can be understrood from other parts of the FAQ, because we don't want FAQ to grow too big (as it is big enough already). As I see things Updated Turn Sequence Diagram clearly shows there are only action windows before and after ambush step.

 

3 I will add this sentence, thanks for feedback.

 

Before giving specific remarks, I should start by describing my general expectations for an unofficial FAQ: to be accepted by the player community and thus become more than a house rule, the aim should be to change as little as possible, only clarifying things that are in dispute and nerfing obviously strong and/or unfun cards or card combos. Strengthening any card or faction should be done rarely if at all, and only if there is a lot of collective experience that definitely shows the need for such a boost.

 

In the light of this, nerfing Dark Elves mill decks is a good thing to do, even if you may have gone a bit too far with restricting both the Crone and Call of the Kraken in addition to the totally necessary Limitation on the Barbed Snares. Summons of Chaos was probably changed to prevent cheap Vlad von Carstein combos, also a good thing to do. I'm also fine with the limits on both Artefacts.

 

What wrecks the whole thing is the massive boost you gave to Skavens, a faction that was just recently expanded with a bunch of pretty strong cards anyway. Going from bad to worst, here are your changes:

Reversing the change on Deathmaster Sniktch is not dramatic, but to do this right after the Rat Swarms have strengthened him anyway seems curious. Still, this could be excused as a simplification, cause you are going back to the printed card text.

There is no such excuse for the Clawleader, where you elected to ‘fix’ a card that has barely been published by boosting its effect considerably. Recursion is immensely powerful in WHI, and giving a 2 cost unit the potential to provide endless fuel for Slave Pens or Daemon Princes seems careless to me.

This pales, however, when compared with what you did with Warpstone Excavation. Let’s remember limiting this card to 1 copy per deck was regarded as a healthy and necessary change to the meta, because this was an auto-include in almost every tournament deck before. So you’ve decided to reverse that ruling and give an obviously overpowered card exclusively to one of the two factions where its ability is more of a benefit than a handicap. And coincidentally, it’s the same faction that already received two other boosts.

 

I’m sorry, but this is so bad that it invalidates all the sensible changes you’ve made, and it relegates your work to the status of house rules for Skaven fanboys, instead of something that could strengthen the community.

My advice is to retract this immediately and restrict your work to things that really need to be changed instead of playing developers.

1 This FAQ will be official in Poland and will be voluntary everywhere else, we are fully aware of that. Also even in Poland players may refuse to play using our errata and restructions. Hell, even FFG FAQ was mostly meant for Tournament Play.

 

2 There really was huge debate about how to fix DE. The current top tier deck was something like that: Hete in the first turn, Kraken and Infiltrator in the second, in the third Crone gets Liber Mortis from Heroic Task, if there is any "big unit" in discard pile (Grimgor, Kazador or even Corsair) she becomes practically unkillable. Arcane Power allows to return Kraken from discard pile, Slave Pen along with Liber Mortis allows Infiltrator every turn. Also if Crone was played in first turn (good opening with Walking Sacrifice on Task) every turn you're loosing cards and options from your deck. Current DE hand destruction is also very strong, combined with Corsair Towers it allows even faster mill.

 

3 Skaven in my opinion got the worst cards in Hidden Kingdoms and some of their mechanics just don't work very well right now. Self corruption is one such thing. To play Hellpit Abomination you need three 2-cost units (Clan Rats, Gutter Runners, Night Runners). Which is 6 resources and and three cards, there were combo decks which needed less. Slave Pen and Daemon Prince are quite an investment in Skaven deck, taking Clawleader in DE/Chaos decks blocks racial villages and requires other skaven cards. Also rush is extinct in Poland, even World Championship top four had 3 control decks and one combo. Please remember that this is just a first version of our FAQ, we have big regional tournament in Poland in January, our solutions will be tested there.

 

About FAQ catering everyone's expectations: Look at Doc9 response, he likes warpstone change  ;)

 

If you strongly dislike some parts of the FAQ there is no need to force yourself, you can ignore parts you disagree with. Hope every other thing we added helps.


Edited by Virgo, 30 December 2013 - 07:19 AM.


#19 Maik

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:28 AM

Thanks for your prompt answers, especially given the strength of my criticism.

 

Regarding your point 2, my focus on the Skaven cards may have overshadowed that I am basically okay with everything you've done here ;)

 

Regarding point 3 about the Skaven cards: there is, to me, a general problem with changing rules to strengthen a card. This was, as I have stated, very rarely done in earlier FAQs, and with good reason. Let the community try to get used to the new cards and find deck approaches that make them shine.

An additional point specific to Warpstone Excavation that I haven't made above: the best FAQs tried to increase deck variety in addition to balance the meta. Bringing back an absolute auto-include into the field is, therefore, a step in the wrong direction.

 

Regarding your final words and point 1: of course neither I nor anybody else is forced to follow these rules, but you could have done a great benefit to the community by restricting yourself to the less radical changes that everyone will find it easy to agree with (i.e. just about everything except for the three skaven cards). Introducing regional house rules, on the other hand, will only fragment the player community instead of strengthening it.

 


1 This FAQ will be official in Poland and will be voluntary everywhere else, we are fully aware of that. Also even in Poland players may refuse to play using our errata and restructions. Hell, even FFG FAQ was mostly meant for Tournament Play.

 

2 The really was huge debate about how to fix DE. The current top tier deck was something like that: Hete in the first turn, Kraken and Infiltrator in the second, in the third Crone gets Liber Mortis from Heroic Task, if there is any "big unit" in discard pile (Grimgor, Kazador or even Corsair) she becomes practically unkillable. Arcane Power allows to return Kraken from discard pile, Slave Pen along with Liber Mortis allows Infiltrator every turn. Also if Crone was played in first turn (good opening with Walking Sacrifice on Task) every turn you're loosing cards and options from your deck. Current DE hand destruction is also very strong, combined with Corsair Towers it allows even faster mill.

 

3 Skaven in my opinion got the worst cards in Hidden Kingdoms and some of their mechanics just don't work very well right now. Self corruption is one such thing. To play Hellpit Abomination you need three 2-cost units (Clan Rats, Gutter Runners, Night Runners). Which is 6 resources and and three cards, there were combo decks which needed less. Slave Pen and Daemon Prince are quite an investment in Skaven deck, taking Clawleader in DE/Chaos decks blocks racial villages and requires other skaven cards. Also rush is extinct in Poland, even World Championship top four had 3 control decks and one combo. Please remember that this is just a first version of our FAQ, we have big regional tournament in Poland in January, our solutions will be tested there.

 

About FAQ catering everyone's expectations: Look at Doc9 response, he likes warpstone change  ;)

 

If you strongly dislike some parts of the FAQ there is no need to force yourself, you can ignore parts you disagree with. Hope every other thing we added helps.



#20 Virgo

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:43 AM

 

Thanks for your prompt answers, especially given the strength of my criticism.

 

Regarding your point 2, my focus on the Skaven cards may have overshadowed that I am basically okay with everything you've done here ;)

 

Regarding point 3 about the Skaven cards: there is, to me, a general problem with changing rules to strengthen a card. This was, as I have stated, very rarely done in earlier FAQs, and with good reason. Let the community try to get used to the new cards and find deck approaches that make them shine.

An additional point specific to Warpstone Excavation that I haven't made above: the best FAQs tried to increase deck variety in addition to balance the meta. Bringing back an absolute auto-include into the field is, therefore, a step in the wrong direction.

 

Regarding your final words and point 1: of course neither I nor anybody else is forced to follow these rules, but you could have done a great benefit to the community by restricting yourself to the less radical changes that everyone will find it easy to agree with (i.e. just about everything except for the three skaven cards). Introducing regional house rules, on the other hand, will only fragment the player community instead of strengthening it.

1 Maik I don't want to counter every thing you say because I clearly see your points. Mind only this: Limit 1 per deck for Warpstone Excavation was simply soft ban for this card. No one competitive was taking it for a restrict slot. Now Skaven players didn't receive an auto include, they got a choice: Innovation or Warpstone Excavation, which is limited so it doesn't go all that well with Contested Village.

 

2 Believe me these changes aren't so radical and some other guys wanted to do even more  ;) For example would you like VTHC back in a way that this card will playable, but won't be broken? It definately requires errata (very small I may add), but it will bring back a card from void (ban).

 

I'm happy you're more or less okay with other things in the FAQ  :)


Edited by Virgo, 30 December 2013 - 07:50 AM.





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