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Glorified Bodyguard PCs (GM ranting)


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#41 Tenebrae

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:10 AM

My issue with it is that you pay more (not a problem in itself) for less and it's strictly more effective to melee with 2 melee weapons and use Quick Draw to sheathe your off-hand and draw a pistol whenever you need some range.

Then do that. Call it breaking a stereotype. Go on, nobody's forcing you to carbon copy.

EDIT: And even if you disallow sheathing with Quick Draw, dual wielding two melee weapon+a pistol fixed to your armor and fired via MIU Weapon Interface is also more effective than dual wielding sword&pistol.

Well duh.

Edited by Tenebrae, 24 December 2013 - 03:19 AM.


#42 Amazing Larry

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:28 AM

For the OP, it seems you got stuck with the fighter syndrome in your party, as some are quite content just to kill things,use fancy weapons and possibly intimidate (their only social skill perhaps?) their way in/out of any and all situations.

 

RT got leadership and the ship

Senechal got smarts

Void-Master got the ship operationg

Hey someone needs to be top killy guy!

 

the Arch Militant really requires a greater level of pathos in order to work as a member of the party beyond "blaaarg I kill". I guess you can't really stop the guy but I think a really quick way to tell whether an AM player is going to be a total **** from the begiining is to ask "what are your character's hopes and dreams, at this moment what does he hope to achive most with his life?"

 

If the anwser is some sort of vague crap about getting rich, gathering a super killy set of gear or getting street cred etc then you know right then he's on the wrong path. The other classes all kind of have skills that will ultimately force some sort of non-violent interactions but if the AM character has no objectives beyond "be killy" he may very well rot in that ghetto.

 

Although he's not alone there because the missionary is in just as much of a position to be a total **** and honestly has more incentive right off to be the biggest king **** he can. Although that creates the oppertunity to examine why he'ws such a **** and maybe develope that into something but once again that requires a player to really develope him without much provocation to do so.



#43 Radwraith

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:21 AM

Remember also that many RT's will not want a "Bodyguard" who's sole ambition is to be a sociopathic murderer! RT's by their nature must conduct negotiations and diplomacy as well as manage considerable assets. In a well run game it will NOT always be the answer to greet the next encounter with a hail of full auto weapon fire! Just sayin...


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#44 LordBlades

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:52 AM

My issue with it is that you pay more (not a problem in itself) for less and it's strictly more effective to melee with 2 melee weapons and use Quick Draw to sheathe your off-hand and draw a pistol whenever you need some range.

Then do that. Call it breaking a stereotype. Go on, nobody's forcing you to carbon copy

How is any if that relevant to my original point, that sword&pistol is undersupprted by the rules despite being quite frequent in fluff.

#45 Braddoc

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:05 AM

I know it is better, but it's less cool to do so; I mean when I was playing to RT, I had my power sword and plasma pistol (the usual "classic" load out really) with ambidextrous.  I was closing in, or they were coming toward me, fired a few shot of the ol' plasma pistol.  Got in melee?  Used my powersword or hip shot my pistol for added effects.  The only thing I could not do was a two-weapon wielder attack or a swift attack with both, which to me wasn't that much of a loss as I would prefer swift attack with my power sword only as the plasma pistol had very limited shots and took 3 flippin' rounds to reload.  The GM was combat oriented and less about RP sadly, so spending 3 rounds to reload was basically just stepping out of the combat and whistling a tune...

 

At any rate, it felt more..heroic to charge in with a pistol and melee weapon...and let's not forget wearing a fancy overly large and non useful hat instead of anything with an armour value, just to show to crew why you're the boss and not them


Edited by Braddoc, 24 December 2013 - 09:07 AM.


#46 Cultadium

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:28 AM

At any rate, it felt more..heroic to charge in with a pistol and melee weapon...and let's not forget wearing a fancy overly large and non useful hat instead of anything with an armour value, just to show to crew why you're the boss and not them

 

Buzz an Ork in a game I played always wore a commissar's hat.


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#47 Kirov

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:52 AM

It seems I'm rather late to the party. Nonetheless, I offer the following to the original poster:

 

I once asked my DnD 3.5 group if they've seen anybody else besides me take the Leadership feat or otherwise go out of their way to acquire minions/allies in other systems. Their answer was "no", and this was despite just how much help an extra set of helping hands can be, something that I proved time and again in the current campaign (do not underestimate the power of a coordinated attack, even when the character partnered with you isn't as high level as you). Heck, even a good contact can be a MASSIVE help, something that I demonstrated in my second Dark Heresy campaign where I spent 190 XP to acquire a reliable armorsmith contact (and let me tell you that that was a major sacrifice on my part as the GM only awarded on average maybe 50 XP per session). Not only was everybody able to get better armor and enjoy increased survivability in the trials that came later, our Inquisitor (yes, our boss) went and got some better armor made for himself, too, especially after suffering some debilitating injuries going toe-to-toe with a greater Slaaneshi daemon.

 

So what's the deal? Why do so many players seem to ignore this option even though it can make the entire group's life so much easier? Well, I think my GM's answer perhaps explains all: players (a large number of them, anyway) are only interested in personal, individual power. That is, they're only interested in abilities that will personally allow them to turn their next opponent into red paste that much more quickly. Anything else is pretty much ignored.

 

As for how to change that behavior? Well, one thing that I can say is that a given player group will tend to equip themselves according to the threats they keep facing. For example, in my first Dark Heresy campaign, we never bothered with trying to get meltas, bolters, or heck, even large amounts of specialist stubber ammo, and all because of the very large groups (20-50 individuals, typically) of virtually unarmored cultists we kept having to fight. Not only would the expensive ammo not have been worth it for such peons, but the small magazine capacities of the bolters and meltas (and to a lesser extent, slug-throwing guns) would have made reloading frequently a dicey proposition at best. In a Rogue Trader campaign, then, try throwing a boarding action or two or otherwise create a situation where having lots of extra friends around is more beneficial than being able to splatter a single opponent in one turn rather than two. Hopefully, when the self-aggrandising character ends up burning fate point because it was going to take 50 turns to kill that entire group of Orks all the while said Orks were shooting at him, he'll get a clue.

 

-Kirov, who plans on asking for counter-espionage agents-turned-wait staff the next time he gets a chance to play Rogue Trader


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#48 Kshatriya

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:41 PM

 

For the OP, it seems you got stuck with the fighter syndrome in your party, as some are quite content just to kill things,use fancy weapons and possibly intimidate (their only social skill perhaps?) their way in/out of any and all situations.

 

RT got leadership and the ship

Senechal got smarts

Void-Master got the ship operationg

Hey someone needs to be top killy guy!

 

the Arch Militant really requires a greater level of pathos in order to work as a member of the party beyond "blaaarg I kill". I guess you can't really stop the guy but I think a really quick way to tell whether an AM player is going to be a total **** from the begiining is to ask "what are your character's hopes and dreams, at this moment what does he hope to achive most with his life?"

 

If the anwser is some sort of vague crap about getting rich, gathering a super killy set of gear or getting street cred etc then you know right then he's on the wrong path. The other classes all kind of have skills that will ultimately force some sort of non-violent interactions but if the AM character has no objectives beyond "be killy" he may very well rot in that ghetto.

 

 

Pretty judgmental about a person wanting to play a particular kind of character. Not every character needs huge hopes and dreams beyond keeping the ship over their head from burning down and the guy who pays their paycheck alive.

 

Of course this is different than having a psycho murderhobo in the party, in which case you may as well play DW where that is all the characters.


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#49 Kshatriya

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:43 PM

 

 

The problem is that it's ridiculous and physically impossible. :)

 

And you can't drop infinite lasguns because you can't carry more than one normally.

How so? I don't recall there being any rule regarding the number of weapons you can carry apart from weight, and Lasguns are light enough for a strong dude to carry around quite a few.

 

 

There aren't any in RT, but I go with the DW, OW, and BC guidelines that it's 1 heavy or basic weapon (two-handed) + 2 one-handed weapons + maybe a backup knife.

 

 

Biggest problem with this in DW is you can quickly run out of stuff you actually want to requisition if you're so limited. AFAIK this is just a prevalent house rule, and I'm glad for that.



#50 Cymbel

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:31 AM

Speakng about the pistol n sword combo, in OW there is a tier 3 talent called "sidearm" which is basically pistol + sword + ambi + TWW melee + TWW ranged + Sidearm = +0 to all the attacks, can use both hands.

 

And as for the style itself? It is cool, it is flexible, it does well in melee AND ranged, even with just ambi (pistol out of melee, sword while in melee)



#51 LordBlades

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:52 AM

 

And as for the style itself? It is cool, it is flexible, it does well in melee AND ranged, even with just ambi (pistol out of melee, sword while in melee)

 

The main issue with that approach is that as long as you're not going to use them both in melee, sword+rifle w. recoil glove is still better than sword+pistol.



#52 Spatulaodoom

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:06 AM

Except that you can't use basic class weapons while in close combat (denying yourself two weapon fighting) and you have to buy a recoil glove. But that entire discussion is fairly off topic when it was more about solo combat centric characters.



#53 jabberwoky

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:08 AM

Except that you can't use basic class weapons while in close combat (denying yourself two weapon fighting) and you have to buy a recoil glove. But that entire discussion is fairly off topic when it was more about solo combat centric characters.

A question: does a spear count as a two-handed weapon in Rogue Trader?  I ask because you could put a bayonet on the Basic-class weapon to use in close combat.



#54 LordBlades

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 02:52 PM

Except that you can't use basic class weapons while in close combat (denying yourself two weapon fighting) and you have to buy a recoil glove. But that entire discussion is fairly off topic when it was more about solo combat centric characters.

 

My statement was in reply to 'it does well in melee AND ranged, even with just ambi (pistol out of melee, sword while in melee)'. If you don't plan to TWF but just give yourself a melee option and a ranged option, sword+basic with recoil golve beats sword+pistol. In the end, whatever you try to do with sword+pistol, there's something else that does it significantly better :( 



#55 Fortinbras

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 08:12 PM

Drop a rok on them.

 

 

If that doesn't work, drop TWO roks on them.  



#56 Cymbel

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:37 AM

Speaking of limited roles. The navigator has little reason to leave the ship and risk death on an away mission on some uncharted world. The explorator has a similar reason, except theirs is keeping the ship running. Astropaths would also stay onboard, too valuable to lose and the RT can have someone carry a long range Vox. First Mate will also be managing things onboard, as well as the Seneschal has figures to go over.

 

That leaves the RT (if they feel like risking it), the "Bodyguard" and maybe a missionary. Granted there are exceptions to the roles listed above, but if we act like the RT has no reason for a trusted retainer who will do anything to save him, we may as well not let the vital crew of the ship jump deep into danger.

 

I still an Arch-Militant should embrace at least part of the role of a commander. Training the personal squad of the RT, leading some boardings or repulsing enemy boarders. They still have an important role to keep the "boss man" alive.


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#57 Tenebrae

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:01 AM

Speaking of limited roles. The navigator has little reason to leave the ship and risk death on an away mission on some uncharted world. The explorator has a similar reason, except theirs is keeping the ship running. Astropaths would also stay onboard, too valuable to lose and the RT can have someone carry a long range Vox. First Mate will also be managing things onboard, as well as the Seneschal has figures to go over.

This is why so much of my campaigns are ship-focussed, I think.



#58 Amazing Larry

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:43 AM

Speaking of limited roles. The navigator has little reason to leave the ship and risk death on an away mission on some uncharted world. The explorator has a similar reason, except theirs is keeping the ship running. Astropaths would also stay onboard, too valuable to lose and the RT can have someone carry a long range Vox. First Mate will also be managing things onboard, as well as the Seneschal has figures to go over.

 

Well in all those cases there's something to be said for going hands on.

 

The Explorator

To put it in the words of Mordin "Someone else might have gotten it wrong" leaving potential discoveries to some underling is a good way to get usurped as king **** of technocracy. Worse yet if they **** it upside down so hard it goes to double hell and wrecks the universe people are going to ask "and where were you while this was happening?"

 

The Seneschal

Kind of a similar thing, if you aren't there to  be THE Gordon Gecko then someone else is going to be. Besides you had those hundred days of warp transit to go over those figures and a hundred more to go over them again on the way back. You need to be there to notice possible opportunities or answer the boss's questions when he wants to know which beads the primitive xenos will accept in return for the mineral rights of their planet. If you aren't some other ******* might be, uh oh office politics.

 

The Navigator

C'mon dontcha wanna live a little before you spend the next six hundred years being a monster, nothing but a biological sliderule in some forgotten corner of the ship ******* your second cousin for the sake of the dynasty? Make some memories now you have a long shitty life ahead of you.



#59 Erathia

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:33 AM

 

The Navigator

C'mon dontcha wanna live a little before you spend the next six hundred years being a monster, nothing but a biological sliderule in some forgotten corner of the ship ******* your second cousin for the sake of the dynasty? Make some memories now you have a long shitty life ahead of you.

 

 

This is my PC Navigator's point of view. He also makes reference to his much less capable and confident cousin who's just off-screen that he repeatedly tries to mentor and improve, so that when he dies on an away mission the ship is not entirely screwed over.


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#60 Cymbel

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:43 PM

It is nice how each role can be so varied though. looking at the extremes of PCs who won't leave the ship to ones eager to get off. Just as Arch-Militants can be commanders of a guard, gunners on the ship, leader of the ship troops all the way to the smartly dressed bodyguard with his favorite gun...






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