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Glorified Bodyguard PCs (GM ranting)


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#21 LordBlades

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:00 AM


 

This isn't that surprising, given that Space Marines do it because they are the pinnacle of human perfection, helped my a large amount of gene modification so they are expert fighters. Ork Warbosses do it because dey like da dakka, but with an Ork's ballistic skill they never HIT with anything. Forbidding basic weapons makes sense, as does restricting heavy weapons in a swirling Melee combat.

 

 

 

On the other hand, space marines are dedicated fighters, I doubt they'd keep using (not many anyway) a bad combat style. As it currently stands in DW ruleset, it's way more effective to dual wield chainswords and drop one (free action) and Quick Draw a plasma pistol (also free action) when needed.



#22 Magellan

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:51 AM

You can sheathe weapons with Quick Draw as well, so as long as you stick to pistols and single-handed melee weapons, you can swap your stuff out pretty much at will.


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#23 Radwraith

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:42 AM

I find that players who overemphasize something can very quickly be educated by placing them in encounters outside their comfort zones. For example: If your group is melee focused in the extreme than have them encounter a group of Kroot firing down on them from a rocky mountain 100+ meters away! (Preferably from ambush initially!) The melee gods will start taking hits and will likely be hamburger long before they can even get into rang to fire their pistols! Additionally, Suppressive fire from a Heavy weapon (Or overwatch) can make it very difficult to close range on an enemy. 

 

As to mooks I have always played them as almost exceedingly dull-witted. they won't do anything without being told. Also; A ship's crew is only 10 percent armsmen per the rules. So most ships won't be landing their entire crew as a combat force. Also; In my game I have ruled that since armsmen are required to maintain security on board ship, Taking large numbers of them dirtside can badle effect the ship's morale!


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#24 Amazing Larry

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:09 PM

You can sheathe weapons with Quick Draw as well, so as long as you stick to pistols and single-handed melee weapons, you can swap your stuff out pretty much at will.

 

It's vague but no my group is pretty sure you can't for two reasons. The first is that the rule just says you can draw as a free action it doesn't say you can put it away again as a free action. The second is there's actually a piece of equipment that's benefit is that you can buy that lets you put a weapon away as a free action. Granted that item is in one of the DH armories but we've been allowing aquisitions of most DH items in a player is inclined.



#25 LordBlades

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:47 PM

 

You can sheathe weapons with Quick Draw as well, so as long as you stick to pistols and single-handed melee weapons, you can swap your stuff out pretty much at will.

 

It's vague but no my group is pretty sure you can't for two reasons. The first is that the rule just says you can draw as a free action it doesn't say you can put it away again as a free action. The second is there's actually a piece of equipment that's benefit is that you can buy that lets you put a weapon away as a free action. Granted that item is in one of the DH armories but we've been allowing aquisitions of most DH items in a player is inclined.

 

 

 

Well, the Quick Draw talent says the character can ready (which is a specific action in the rules) as a free action, and ready means that 'The active character draws a weapon or retrieves an object stowed in a pouch or pocket. A weapon or item can also be properly stowed away with this action' so yes, you explicitly can stow weapons as a free action too.

 

Which actually kills every single mechanical reason to dual wield a pistol and a melee weapon.


Edited by LordBlades, 22 December 2013 - 12:48 PM.


#26 Amazing Larry

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:03 PM

AS WRITTEN IN THE CORE RULEBOOK


"The Explorer has practiced so frequently with his weapons that they practically leap into his hands, ready for action. He can Ready as a Free Action when armed with a pistol or basic class ranged weapon, or a melee weapon that can be wielded in one hand."

 

No the word "stow" doesn't appear anywhere in there so stowing a weapon is still a half action unless you buy the magnetic holsters from the DH armory or buy some other talent that I'm not aware of. I don't know why it is you're always arguing for excessive permissiveness but I've noticed in the last few days almost every time someone said that some sort of craziness should not only be permitted but is fully sanctioned by the rules it's been you.



#27 Magellan

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:24 PM

AS WRITTEN IN THE CORE RULEBOOK


"The Explorer has practiced so frequently with his weapons that they practically leap into his hands, ready for action. He can Ready as a Free Action when armed with a pistol or basic class ranged weapon, or a melee weapon that can be wielded in one hand."

 

No the word "stow" doesn't appear anywhere in there so stowing a weapon is still a half action unless you buy the magnetic holsters from the DH armory or buy some other talent that I'm not aware of. I don't know why it is you're always arguing for excessive permissiveness but I've noticed in the last few days almost every time someone said that some sort of craziness should not only be permitted but is fully sanctioned by the rules it's been you.

I think your reading of the last post was somewhat hasty. The Quick Draw talent allows you to 'Ready' as a free action. Ready is a specific combat action, which includes both drawing weapons and stowing them, just like LordBlades wrote.


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#28 Radwraith

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:52 PM

 

AS WRITTEN IN THE CORE RULEBOOK


"The Explorer has practiced so frequently with his weapons that they practically leap into his hands, ready for action. He can Ready as a Free Action when armed with a pistol or basic class ranged weapon, or a melee weapon that can be wielded in one hand."

 

No the word "stow" doesn't appear anywhere in there so stowing a weapon is still a half action unless you buy the magnetic holsters from the DH armory or buy some other talent that I'm not aware of. I don't know why it is you're always arguing for excessive permissiveness but I've noticed in the last few days almost every time someone said that some sort of craziness should not only be permitted but is fully sanctioned by the rules it's been you.

I think your reading of the last post was somewhat hasty. The Quick Draw talent allows you to 'Ready' as a free action. Ready is a specific combat action, which includes both drawing weapons and stowing them, just like LordBlades wrote.

 

It's poorly written. Technically when read RAW it would ONLY apply to stowing weapons (It reads WHEN ARMED) but we all know that's not what the developers intended. You could make the case either way. I tend to rule that it applies to stowing as well as drawing since with a slung basic weapon you are basically just dropping it and who hasn't seen various incarnations of drawing firing and sheathing a weapon almost instantly. IRL there is an entire martial art that is dedicated to the drawing, striking with and resheathing a blade in a single "Action". (Iaijutzu for those who might be interested.)


Edited by Radwraith, 22 December 2013 - 01:54 PM.


#29 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:05 PM

If you allow stowing as a Free Action things can get really absurd. "I stow my bolter, draw my pistols, stow my pistols, draw my axe."



#30 LordBlades

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:02 PM

If you allow stowing as a Free Action things can get really absurd. "I stow my bolter, draw my pistols, stow my pistols, draw my axe."

 And what exactly is the problem with that?

 

It's not like you can make more attacks or anything, and it's not like what you described is any more stupid than 'I draw my 1st lasgun, drop it, draw my 2nd lasgun, drop it....'rinse and repeat until your opponent is completely buried in lasguns, all in the span of 5 seconds.



#31 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 02:34 AM

The problem is that it's ridiculous and physically impossible. :)

 

And you can't drop infinite lasguns because you can't carry more than one normally.



#32 LordBlades

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:21 AM

The problem is that it's ridiculous and physically impossible. :)

 

And you can't drop infinite lasguns because you can't carry more than one normally.

How so? I don't recall there being any rule regarding the number of weapons you can carry apart from weight, and Lasguns are light enough for a strong dude to carry around quite a few.



#33 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 08:15 AM

My feelings when I come back to the thread after almost a week away from this forum:

02b4419f5e8c5a153baf4b4f34e6f555ea138a6e


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#34 venkelos

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:04 AM

+1

 

I would practice that you can draw or stow, with the same ability. This is why, however, I'm glad that SW Saga Edition (thank you Emperor, for being a reference, too) they have Swift Actions, which aren't quite free, and so you only have so many. It should be no more difficult to holster a weapon than draw it, and any ability that covers one SHOULD cover both. (I'm not saying that's what the book says, but I AM saying they don't always right intelligent stuff, or what they mean.)

 

Sometimes, you CAN'T just settle for RAW; sometimes, you have to just look at your GM, and make them make a ruling. Just like they won't let you soliloquize for 30 minutes with a free action, if you do too many little things, you'll get stopped, so someone else can act. They won't let you do too many shenanigans with your weapons because they'll say so.



#35 Erathia

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:26 AM

My feelings when I come back to the thread after almost a week away from this forum:
 

 

Oh come on, we've hated worse than this. I haven't seen any death threats yet.


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#36 Nameless2all

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 03:42 PM

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#37 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:52 PM

 

The problem is that it's ridiculous and physically impossible. :)

 

And you can't drop infinite lasguns because you can't carry more than one normally.

How so? I don't recall there being any rule regarding the number of weapons you can carry apart from weight, and Lasguns are light enough for a strong dude to carry around quite a few.

 

 

There aren't any in RT, but I go with the DW, OW, and BC guidelines that it's 1 heavy or basic weapon (two-handed) + 2 one-handed weapons + maybe a backup knife.

 

You simply don't have the physical space on your body to carry 5-6 rifles.



#38 Nameless2all

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:46 PM

The problem is that it's ridiculous and physically impossible. :)
 
And you can't drop infinite lasguns because you can't carry more than one normally.

How so? I don't recall there being any rule regarding the number of weapons you can carry apart from weight, and Lasguns are light enough for a strong dude to carry around quite a few.
 
There aren't any in RT, but I go with the DW, OW, and BC guidelines that it's 1 heavy or basic weapon (two-handed) + 2 one-handed weapons + maybe a backup knife.
 
You simply don't have the physical space on your body to carry 5-6 rifles.

IRL, I've seen people carry a rifle w/ 210 rnds, pistol w/ 60 rnds, two knives, 4 grenades, and a radio on their back. Anothe person carried a rifle, shotgun, pistol, compact pistol, kbar, 2 knives/gerber, and 3 grenades. Another guy carried a rifle w/ a grenade launcher, pistol, 8 grenades, machette and skittles (he had a thang for them, what can I say).

So yep, that is about the norm depending on your size. Probably go with 1 hvy weapon or 2 basic, 2-3 pistols, and 3-7 knives/grenades IMHO though. A backpack can carry more, but probably won't because supplies are in there.

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#39 Braddoc

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:59 PM

Keeping in mind we're talking about a game set 38000 years in to the future where people got to say a prayer before turning the lights on to smooth the soul of the switch.

 

As for using a pistol+sword in melee, it is not just a thing for Marines; Guard sergeants and officers typically goes about with this set-up, laspistol+chainsword...and yes it cost more because it is two widely different weapons types that to me, it is natural that it costs more to get to use both with efficiency.

 

For the OP, it seems you got stuck with the fighter syndrome in your party, as some are quite content just to kill things,use fancy weapons and possibly intimidate (their only social skill perhaps?) their way in/out of any and all situations.

 

RT got leadership and the ship

Senechal got smarts

Void-Master got the ship operationg

Hey someone needs to be top killy guy!


Edited by Braddoc, 23 December 2013 - 11:01 PM.

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#40 LordBlades

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:26 PM

 

 

As for using a pistol+sword in melee, it is not just a thing for Marines; Guard sergeants and officers typically goes about with this set-up, laspistol+chainsword...and yes it cost more because it is two widely different weapons types that to me, it is natural that it costs more to get to use both with efficiency.

 

 

My issue with it is that you pay more (not a problem in itself) for less and it's strictly more effective to melee with 2 melee weapons and use Quick Draw to sheathe your off-hand and draw a pistol whenever you need some range.

 

EDIT: And even if you disallow sheathing with Quick Draw, dual wielding two melee weapon+a pistol fixed to your armor and fired via MIU Weapon Interface is also more effective than dual wielding sword&pistol.


Edited by LordBlades, 23 December 2013 - 11:59 PM.





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