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Moral and Physical Corruption (Alternate Rules)


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#1 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:33 PM

Edit- Deleted by author.


Edited by Brother Orpheo, 11 January 2014 - 05:33 PM.

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#2 Askil

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:04 AM

While I agree with the need to change the way that PCs suffer the effects of exposure to the secret wars of the inquisition this just seems like far too much active book keeping and decision making for what should really be a passive background mechanic.

 

That said I love that you (like me) think that corruption should be awarded for acts of immoral depravity.

 

Most people seem to forget that the whole malignancy system is based on the medieval thinking that evil within leds to vileness without. If you accept this thinking as a universal constant it explains a lot about why almost everything in 40k artwork looks grotty and unpleasant.


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#3 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 02:41 AM

But the Inquisition performs acts of immoral depravity on a daily basis. They kill innocents just because they saw something they shouldn't have, they exterminate entire populations of civilians just because they bought farming equipment from the Tau, and they actively encourage witch-hunts for mutants and psykers. 'Err on the side of harshness' is an Imperial maxim.

 

"Evil within leads to vileness without". Yet Slaanesh cultists are often extremely beautiful. Perhaps, then, this is why Slaanesh is so insidious. The Dark Eldar are also depicted as quite attractive, if less obviously human, especially considering their lifestyle, though I've heard it said that psykers who gaze upon the Dark Eldar will describe their souls as rotten to the core. Beauty without does not mean purity within, and many of the Emperor's Faithful are also quite physically ugly; for example, some of the more broken and scarred Battle Sisters or Space Marines, or any Ogryn ever.

 

Also, I think those alternate rules are overly complex and verbose. I couldn't understand it at all.


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 27 December 2013 - 02:51 AM.

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"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#4 Askil

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 01:56 PM

In your willful ignorance you have touched my point, the imperium is vile, corrupt and digusting.

 

Also the firebrand puritans you describe burning people for minor infractions often become more twisted and increasingly harsh as their corruption slowly causes them to lose their grip on reality.

 

Slaaneshi cultists are described as unnaturally beautiful they are also often described as sickeningly vile and yet alluring all the same. the ame goes fo Dark Eldar while their forms are lithe and beautiful they exude an air of twisted cruelty.

 

Not all corruption is "grows an extra face" or "starts rotting."



#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 10:32 PM

Let's not import our value system into 40K's Saudi Arabia in Space.

 

Burning somebody for a minor infraction is NOT a moral failing in 40K. (More precisely, their definition of what a "minor infraction" is is different from yours.) If you DON't burn somebody for a minor infraction, THAT is the moral failing.

 

Being merciful in 40K IS BEING CORRUPT.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 28 December 2013 - 12:40 AM.

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#6 Kshatriya

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 10:57 AM

I don't think trying to draw parallels between the Imperium and any one real-world government is helpful or accurate. The Imperium combines some of the worst conceits of numerous historical governments and entities (the Third Reich, the Spanish Inquisition, American ideas of Manifest Destiny, inherent speciesist superiority that is basically a nod to historical white supremacy), along with an overall degree of what we might consider "liberal tolerance" in other areas, i.e. not having overarching skin-color-supremacist, misogynist, or homophobic beliefs (a a whole - individual planets or sects may of course vary on that).



#7 Askil

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 11:17 AM

Let's not import our value system into 40K's Saudi Arabia in Space.

 

Burning somebody for a minor infraction is NOT a moral failing in 40K. (More precisely, their definition of what a "minor infraction" is is different from yours.) If you DON't burn somebody for a minor infraction, THAT is the moral failing.

 

Being merciful in 40K IS BEING CORRUPT.

 

Bull.

 

Psychopathically massacaring innocents for not obeying your rules is unequestionably immoral, the issue is not if they view the act as immoral but if the universe does, whether it corrupts them.

 

Inquisitors are well known for their tendency to grow more twisted and radical as time goes on and their exposure to corruption grows more prolonged and profound.

 

The mechanics of morality in the 40k verse are not the same as in RL. In real life if you are a spiritualist drug addict you don't become unnnaturally beautiful you become a junkie with a crystal collection.



#8 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 11:36 AM

 

Let's not import our value system into 40K's Saudi Arabia in Space.

 

Burning somebody for a minor infraction is NOT a moral failing in 40K. (More precisely, their definition of what a "minor infraction" is is different from yours.) If you DON't burn somebody for a minor infraction, THAT is the moral failing.

 

Being merciful in 40K IS BEING CORRUPT.

 

Bull.

 

Psychopathically massacaring innocents for not obeying your rules is unequestionably immoral, the issue is not if they view the act as immoral but if the universe does, whether it corrupts them.


 

 

There is no indication that killing innocents for not obeying your rules is corrupting in 40K. It is _standard operating practice_. (Actually if they have not obeyed your rules they are not innocent by definition!) This is Dark Space Middle Ages, not Dark Space Modern Scandinavia. (Dark Heresy is really more like Space Gestapo, though.)

 

Don't bring psychopathology into it; it is begging the question. The Ecclesiarch who kills innocents do so because he believes it is necessary, not because he's nuts. He is corrupt if he DOESN'T do it; that's exactly what Chaos prays on: weakness.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 28 December 2013 - 11:44 AM.

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#9 Kshatriya

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 11:45 AM

The morality draw for the Imperium is that NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, their actions will be pleasing to one or another of the Chaos Gods. Hence why the setting is grimdark - Humanity  pushes to survive, thrive, and basically 4X the Milky Way and in doing so, they feed their own worst enemies. The biggest irony is that Humanity cannot defeat the Chaos Gods in any way except MAYBE by going extinct, since Humanity is the most populous species in the Milky Way and thus has the most psychic influence over the "evolution" of entities in the Warp.

 

The Inquisition slaughtering the people of Armageddon after the First War is, doubtlessly, doing the work of Khorne in its extreme bloodshed. However that does not mean that the Inquisitor who gave the order and whatever groups carry out the purge gain CP for the slaughter (though execution squads may definitely gain IP unless they're Jaded). Now, if they set up the executions to be a form of ritual slaughter for Khorne, e.g. brass collection tanks pool the blood of the executed and burn it for the Blood God (rather than just pleasing him by the killing happening), that would be outright worship and sufficient to prompt CP. Just firing-squadding people because your boss told you to, and going about it in a "normal" way? No CP. Imo.


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#10 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 03:41 AM

Humans are not actually the most populous species in the Milky Way, they're just the most populous that's affected by Chaos in any significant way. Orks and Tyranids both outnumber them, and it could be argued that the Necrons do as well, although the vast majority of Necrons are still asleep. Necrons are fundamentally opposed to Chaos, Tyranids are able to resist because they don't actually have any individual will or motivation beyond "eat everything", and those Tyranids that are corrupted are simply not absorbed into the biomass by the Hive Mind. While Chaos Orks do exist, they are very much the minority, unlike humans, where Chaos cultists and Chaos Space Marines are populous and powerful enough to form mini-empires and pose a massive military threat to not just the Imperium, but the entire galaxy.

 

But I digress from the topic at hand. One thing I've noticed from OP's chart is that corruption entails permanent characteristic damage, which perhaps completely misses the point of what makes Chaos so seductive in the first place. It doesn't just let you live out your desires and fantasies, it empowers you by doing so. For example: A downtrodden soldier of the Imperial Guard goes on a vengeful killing spree after being mistreated by his uncaring superiors one too many times, and Khorne rewards his murderous rage with increased martial skill and immunity to fear… which in turn encourages him to kill more, and less discriminately, with less concern for his own well-being, until he is little more than an animalistic berserker howling for blood. While this might obviously be a somewhat exaggerated case, my point is that Chaos corruption should not only penalize someone. Said Guardsman, for example, might take hits to Fellowship as he grows more sociopathic, or Intelligence as his logical thinking is impaired by the constant red haze of anger. In turn, however, he gets bonuses to Strength, Toughness, and/or Weapon Skill as the Blood God gradually shapes him to be a better killer. Emphasis on the word gradually; Chaos is always depicted as an insidious force that slowly shapes its victims, often without them realizing it until it's far too late; the Guardman's resentment could be bubbling for months or even years, letting Khorne slowly twist his thoughts and fill his mind with anger, until he finally snaps and goes on a rampage.

 

If, on the other hand, the Guardsman ends up assassinating his superiors because he wants to move up the chain of command in their absence, furthering his own plans, then the act could be seen as empowering Tzeentch instead of Khorne. Depending on the character's motivations, methods, personality, and which Ruinous Power benefits most from their deeds, their characteristics should be altered accordingly and appropriately. This should be a topic of discussion between the player and the GM, working out what path they both want the character to take and how their actions should affect their character sheet. This is something that can easily be done without OP's labyrinthine rules; all it takes is cooperation between player and GM in order to better tell a story, which ultimately is what roleplaying games are all about.


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"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#11 Kshatriya

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:03 AM

I thought chaos orks had been written out of the fluff. In any case, yes you're right. The Tyranid Hive Mind and ork WAAAGH! psychic gestalt offer a layer of psychic protection against Chaos corruption that humanity lacks.



#12 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:24 PM

Labyrinthine rules? Is this the Dark Heresy House Rules forum, or did I inadvertently post in Tiddlywinks For Beginners? 


Edited by Brother Orpheo, 07 January 2014 - 02:36 PM.

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#13 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 05:13 AM

They are unnecessary, and accomplish nothing that the core rules and a reasonably competent GM could not do. Not to mention that they sort of miss the point on Insanity and Corruption; it's not an immediate process, it happens gradually over time.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#14 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:41 PM

Without your professional insight as the foremost authority on all things involving House Rules and "reasonable" I might never have learned that actually posting House Rules and viewing things from a different perspective than anyone else is frowned upon. Boy, do I feel like a schmuck.


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#15 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:16 AM

If I don't like your house rules, I'm not going to hesitate to tell you, and I prefer brutally honest critique.


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 10 January 2014 - 06:29 AM.

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"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#16 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:35 AM

I don't think trying to draw parallels between the Imperium and any one real-world government is helpful or accurate. The Imperium combines some of the worst conceits of numerous historical governments and entities (the Third Reich, the Spanish Inquisition, American ideas of Manifest Destiny, inherent speciesist superiority that is basically a nod to historical white supremacy), along with an overall degree of what we might consider "liberal tolerance" in other areas, i.e. not having overarching skin-color-supremacist, misogynist, or homophobic beliefs (a a whole - individual planets or sects may of course vary on that).

 

It is kind of a funny commentary on our society (or at least that part interested in 40K ;) ) that the Space Nazi Genocide stuff is OK, but OMG homophobia and sexism in space that would be wrong OMG



#17 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:26 PM

Well, why would they waste time with racism when there's speciesism instead? There's a bunch of aliens running around for them to hate instead. As Terry Pratchett put it, "White and black lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."


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"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





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