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Question about Dodge


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#1 Fixxxer

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:06 PM

I'm very new to the system and our group has just had its second fight.  After rolling an insanely good attack (seriously, like a 1 when I needed less than 104), an ork was able to dodge the bullet and take 0 damage.  Seems like Dodge (and probably parry) are all or nothing.  So is there a way (traits, etc) to make it more difficult for someone to dodge/parry your attack?


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#2 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

I'm very new to the system and our group has just had its second fight.  After rolling an insanely good attack (seriously, like a 1 when I needed less than 104), an ork was able to dodge the bullet and take 0 damage.  Seems like Dodge (and probably parry) are all or nothing.  So is there a way (traits, etc) to make it more difficult for someone to dodge/parry your attack?

 

 

Feint maneuver
Killing Strike talent
Furious Assault talent (depending on the interpretation of this talent works)
Two-Weapon Wielder talent

Swift Attack/Lightning Attack talent

Multiple Arms trait

 

None of these function for ranged attacks. BUT...

 

Overwatch. At least in Only War this attack cannot be Dodged; I'm not sure if this is the case in DW.

 

Also, semi and full auto fire are inherently harder to dodge.



#3 LordBlades

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:40 AM


 

Overwatch. At least in Only War this attack cannot be Dodged; I'm not sure if this is the case in DW.

 

Also, semi and full auto fire are inherently harder to dodge.

 

Overwatch is undodgeable in all systems AFAIK, because Dodge is a reaction, and as such you can only dodge when it's not your turn. same thing applies for other Reaction attacks, like Mehcandendrites.

 

Hit somebody on their turn and they can't do much about it.


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#4 pearldrum1

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:45 AM

How would you ever hit somebody on their turn? To hit someone wouldn't it, by definition HAVE to be the person's turn who is doing the hitting?



#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:47 AM

How would you ever hit somebody on their turn? To hit someone wouldn't it, by definition HAVE to be the person's turn who is doing the hitting?

 

Wiell with Overwatch. :) EDIT: and with lots of Squad Mode abilities.

 

There used to be great debates about whether you could do this with Delay, but in the Only War errata I think it was finally clarified that you cannot.

 

A "turn" is your place in the Initiative Order.

 

Contra LordBlades, I have always treated mechadendrites as using the Reaction, not as being done not on your turn, because otherwise it's weird.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 20 December 2013 - 07:49 AM.

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#6 LordBlades

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:13 AM


 

Contra LordBlades, I have always treated mechadendrites as using the Reaction, not as being done not on your turn, because otherwise it's weird.

 

 

We've always run it by the book:

 

The owner may use this mechadendrite as his Reaction for the Round or as a Half Action Attack on his own turn.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that if you use it on your own turn it's a half action, if not it's a Reaction (which by definition can only be done when it's not your turn). Can't say we've hand any problems so far.


Edited by LordBlades, 20 December 2013 - 08:13 AM.

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#7 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:25 AM

A Reaction by definition is also AFAIK something done as a response to something else.

 

If it means "you do it whenever it's not your turn," that violates the whole Initiative system; you go whenever you want You could make your attacks undodgeable by simply waiting until it is somebody else's turn and attacking them then,

 

I don't think this makes sense.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 20 December 2013 - 08:28 AM.


#8 Fixxxer

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 10:56 AM

Rather than specific actions, I was hoping there might be something along the lines of how the Cleanse and Purify trait helps those with flamers.  Something like "the target takes a -20 penalty to attempts to dodge."


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#9 LordBlades

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:18 PM

A Reaction by definition is also AFAIK something done as a response to something else.

 

If it means "you do it whenever it's not your turn," that violates the whole Initiative system; you go whenever you want You could make your attacks undodgeable by simply waiting until it is somebody else's turn and attacking them then,

 

I don't think this makes sense.

 

I disagree. I think that's the designer intent for Ballistic Mechadendrite

 

If it were to work by your rule (fire on your turn, eats up your reaction), it will be a strictly inferior version of MIU weapon interface (fire on your turn, but as a free action, no limit to what you can attach it to) that nobody would ever have a reason to spend XP on (since you can mount a weapon on a shoulder attached arm, operate it via MIU weapon interface and call it a 'ballistic mechadendrite').

 

From an in-character standpoint, I feel 'I wait until he tries to do something (in game terms, his turn comes) then I shoot him while he's distracted' is a perfectly valid phrasing for both an Overwatch as well as a Reaction shot.



#10 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:00 PM

 

A Reaction by definition is also AFAIK something done as a response to something else.

 

If it means "you do it whenever it's not your turn," that violates the whole Initiative system; you go whenever you want You could make your attacks undodgeable by simply waiting until it is somebody else's turn and attacking them then,

 

I don't think this makes sense.

 

I disagree. I think that's the designer intent for Ballistic Mechadendrite

 

If it were to work by your rule (fire on your turn, eats up your reaction), it will be a strictly inferior version of MIU weapon interface (fire on your turn, but as a free action, no limit to what you can attach it to) that nobody would ever have a reason to spend XP on (since you can mount a weapon on a shoulder attached arm, operate it via MIU weapon interface and call it a 'ballistic mechadendrite').

 

From an in-character standpoint, I feel 'I wait until he tries to do something (in game terms, his turn comes) then I shoot him while he's distracted' is a perfectly valid phrasing for both an Overwatch as well as a Reaction shot.

 

 

DW doesn't have ballistic mechadendrites (for PCs), does it? They have enormous servo-arms that do huge damage, occasionally with some ranged weapons stuck on them. I don't actually recollect the MIU rules. (Couldn't you get a mechadendrite AND an MIU?) And Tech-Marines have the Talents by default.

 

Well the issue is that if it just uses your reaction you can do it _at any time_; there is nothing about "setting conditions" for Reaction use. It's "a reaction to something." You can use it an any point, whenever something happens, no matter what, and if the mechadendrite is used in this way, the enemy can't dodge it, no matter what. (Which also implies that if nothing is going on, you can't use your mechandendrite if you also attack. It just hangs there uselessly.)

 

I think it'spretty clear that Overwatch is meant for targets entering an area, not just for any conditions whatsoever (in which case I could make pretty much all my attacks undodgeable).


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 20 December 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#11 LordBlades

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:21 PM

 

 

A Reaction by definition is also AFAIK something done as a response to something else.

 

If it means "you do it whenever it's not your turn," that violates the whole Initiative system; you go whenever you want You could make your attacks undodgeable by simply waiting until it is somebody else's turn and attacking them then,

 

I don't think this makes sense.

 

I disagree. I think that's the designer intent for Ballistic Mechadendrite

 

If it were to work by your rule (fire on your turn, eats up your reaction), it will be a strictly inferior version of MIU weapon interface (fire on your turn, but as a free action, no limit to what you can attach it to) that nobody would ever have a reason to spend XP on (since you can mount a weapon on a shoulder attached arm, operate it via MIU weapon interface and call it a 'ballistic mechadendrite').

 

From an in-character standpoint, I feel 'I wait until he tries to do something (in game terms, his turn comes) then I shoot him while he's distracted' is a perfectly valid phrasing for both an Overwatch as well as a Reaction shot.

 

 

DW doesn't have ballistic mechadendrites (for PCs), does it? They have enormous servo-arms that do huge damage, occasionally with some ranged weapons stuck on them. I don't actually recollect the MIU rules. (Couldn't you get a mechadendrite AND an MIU?) And Tech-Marines have the Talents by default.

 

Well the issue is that if it just uses your reaction you can do it _at any time_; there is nothing about "setting conditions" for Reaction use. It's "a reaction to something." You can use it an any point, whenever something happens, no matter what, and if the mechadendrite is used in this way, the enemy can't dodge it, no matter what. (Which also implies that if nothing is going on, you can't use your mechandendrite if you also attack. It just hangs there uselessly.)

 

I think it'spretty clear that Overwatch is meant for targets entering an area, not just for any conditions whatsoever (in which case I could make pretty much all my attacks undodgeable).

 

 

DW doesn't, it's from RT, however, the existence of both ballistic mechadendrite and MIU weapon interface in RT is (to me at least) a pretty clear indication that they meant the mechadendrite (and attack as a Reaction in general) to work when it's not your turn (and therefore circumventing the 'one attack per turn' limitation, as stated explicitly in RT FAQ), otherwise the mechadendrite would just be a strictly worse version of MIU weapon interface that you need to pay XP, which I strongly doubt is what they had in mind.

 

Given that the servo-arm in DW has a 99% identical phrasing to the ballistic mechadendrite in RT, I really see no indication they meant the rules to work differently.

 

As for Overwatch, it explicitly states the character specifies the trigger condition, and I doubt they meant it exclusively for foes entering your field of fire. Yelling 'don't move' and using Overwatch to shoot anyone who does seems pretty reasonable to me.



#12 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:34 PM

You can't just yell "don't move" in the middle of a combat and then your opponent (actually opponents, since Overwatch affects an area) magically can't dodge you and in addition can be pinned.

 

I think it'smore likely that the screwed up on the MIU interface, frankly. I mean really: you literally cannot attack with your main weapon and the mechadendrite unless somebody else does something first? This doesn't make any sense.



#13 LordBlades

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 03:06 AM

You can't just yell "don't move" in the middle of a combat and then your opponent (actually opponents, since Overwatch affects an area) magically can't dodge you and in addition can be pinned.

 

I think it'smore likely that the screwed up on the MIU interface, frankly. I mean really: you literally cannot attack with your main weapon and the mechadendrite unless somebody else does something first? This doesn't make any sense.

 It makes about as much sense as 'you can't move your Ag bonus in meters as a reaction unless you're dodging a grenade'. If somebody tosses a frag grenade straight at you, you can dodge it and move 4m that way. If somebody throws a wooden mock-up of a frag grenade at you, you dodge it but you don't move.

 

As for screwing up the MIU, I don't think they did. They explained the intent (pretty clearly IMO) in RT FAQ:

 

Question: When can an Explorer fire a weapon he has
connected to himself with an MIU?
Answer: An Explorer using an MIU is still subject to the one Psychic
Technique, Navigator Power, or Action with the “Attack”
subtype during each of his Turns rule (outlined on page 7 of
the Rogue Trader Living Errata). An MIU means that he can
dedicate all of his Turn to other Actions (such as making a Full
Move Action or assuming a Defensive Stance) and still make a
Standard Attack Action with a single MIU-linked weapon as a
Free Action at any point during that Turn.

Question: As addressed on page 7 of the Rogue Trader
Living Errata, an Explorer can only attack once during his
Turn. But how many times can an Explorer attack during
another character’s Turn?
Answer: Technically, there is no limit to the number of times
an Explorer can attack during any Turn other than his own.
Of course, there are only a few ways to attack during other
characters’ Turns—but if an Explorer makes a melee attack
against an enemy as that foe moves away from him, he can
still use the Counter-Attack Talent to make an attack after a
successful Parry (and even use the Counter-Attack Talent after
Parrying a second attack that Turn, provided that he can make
multiple Parry Reactions, such as with the Wall of Steel Talent).



#14 pearldrum1

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:28 AM

You can't just yell "don't move" in the middle of a combat and then your opponent (actually opponents, since Overwatch affects an area) magically can't dodge you and in addition can be pinned.

 

I think it'smore likely that the screwed up on the MIU interface, frankly. I mean really: you literally cannot attack with your main weapon and the mechadendrite unless somebody else does something first? This doesn't make any sense.

 

I thought Dodge was only in reaction to attacks the PC or NPC is aware of. To me it seems very clear that an enemy entering a space that has an overwatch on it more than likely will not be aware of the enemy that set it up. I know this because why the hell would they be entering said area if they KNEW that someone was preparing to fire on it. 

 

In specific circumstances, certainly, but for the most part, I would wager that they could not dodge simply because they had no idea they were about to get lit up.



#15 LordBlades

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:47 AM

 

You can't just yell "don't move" in the middle of a combat and then your opponent (actually opponents, since Overwatch affects an area) magically can't dodge you and in addition can be pinned.

 

I think it'smore likely that the screwed up on the MIU interface, frankly. I mean really: you literally cannot attack with your main weapon and the mechadendrite unless somebody else does something first? This doesn't make any sense.

 

I thought Dodge was only in reaction to attacks the PC or NPC is aware of. To me it seems very clear that an enemy entering a space that has an overwatch on it more than likely will not be aware of the enemy that set it up. I know this because why the hell would they be entering said area if they KNEW that someone was preparing to fire on it. 

 

In specific circumstances, certainly, but for the most part, I would wager that they could not dodge simply because they had no idea they were about to get lit up.

 

 

 

By that line of thought how are the following situations different:

 

a) Guy A has overwatch set down a hallway, guy B walks around the corner, finishing a full move just inside A's overwatch area, gets shot by overwatch,

 

b) Guy A just generally aims down the hallway (let's just say he just took down another baddie in that direction or whatever), guy B walks around the corner, finishing a full move just past said corner, his turn ends, guy A turn comes and he shoots him.

 

From an in-character perspective they look 99% the same, but from a rules perspective they're vastly different.


Edited by LordBlades, 21 December 2013 - 09:44 AM.


#16 herichimo

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 10:07 AM

Feint maneuver
Killing Strike talent
Furious Assault talent (depending on the interpretation of this talent works)
Two-Weapon Wielder talent

Swift Attack/Lightning Attack talent

Multiple Arms trait

 

None of these function for ranged attacks. BUT...

 

Overwatch. At least in Only War this attack cannot be Dodged; I'm not sure if this is the case in DW.

 

Also, semi and full auto fire are inherently harder to dodge.

 

These are correct.

When dodging a blast weapon, your character must 1: using his AB in meters, be able to move completely out of the blast radii; and 2: be capable of moving out of the radii (not be prone, knockedown, grappled, stuck in a corner with nowhere to go, etc.)

 

Lots of bullets hitting means lots of successes needed to counter. Storm, Twin Linked, etc. all give more dakka.

 

As for Overwatch (and similar) and dodging.

1: Characters are allowed to dodge overwatch. When a character is performing an action like overwatch he is interrupting the normal initiative order for the purpose of making a single attack (or some other action). Until the attack is complete it is no longer the initiative character's turn, it is the attacker's. Once the attack is completed it returns to the initiative character's turn.

 

2: On the other hand, as in the case with several of the above mentioned examples, if an overwatch is set to attack persons "coming around the corner" the targets are more than likely going to be Unaware of the shooter lying in wait for him (unless they can see, spec. guns, around corners etc.). This means the character cannot dodge, since he was unaware of the attack, despite overwatch not technically forbidding dodges. These are considerations GMs must rule on when running an encounter.



#17 deaddmwalking

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 12:37 PM

So to confirm, if you hit an opponent with a single attack roll, even if it does multiple hits (like semi-auto fire) they are all negated with a successful Dodge check?
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#18 LordBlades

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:40 PM

So to confirm, if you hit an opponent with a single attack roll, even if it does multiple hits (like semi-auto fire) they are all negated with a successful Dodge check?

 

Dodge denies one hit per DOS, so if you shoot let's say a Heavy bolter and score 4 DOS on your BS test (so 5 hits), and the enemy scores 2 DOS on his Dodge test, he only dodges the first 3 bullets, with the last 2 hitting normally.


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#19 pearldrum1

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:19 PM

 

So to confirm, if you hit an opponent with a single attack roll, even if it does multiple hits (like semi-auto fire) they are all negated with a successful Dodge check?

 

Dodge denies one hit per DOS, so if you shoot let's say a Heavy bolter and score 4 DOS on your BS test (so 5 hits), and the enemy scores 2 DOS on his Dodge test, he only dodges the first 3 bullets, with the last 2 hitting normally.

 

 

Well now, that is very good to know.

 

Does parry work in a similar fashion? For instance if my assault marine attempt two attacks on an enemy, can that enemy only parry 1 attack or does it have a chance to parry all attacks against it?


Edited by pearldrum1, 21 December 2013 - 08:28 PM.


#20 Routa-maa

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:57 AM

Just read, to shock my memories correct, Dual-Wielding rules in DW and in my mind by RAW you can only Parry one attack per Round.

 

And as Multiple Attacks are separate rolls you could only Parry one attack out of possible maximum off 4 attacks (Swift attack grants 2 attacks to your main hand and Lightning Attack 3 attacks to main hand. You can only make 1 off-hand attack)

 

Seems stupid as you can Dodge multiple attacks from automatic fire weapons but not multiple hits from melee attack.

 

As user of OW rules I have ported them to DW also so that removed much of the headache these rules had when we started playing DW.

 

Remember when we started playing DW and our Assault marine used Parry and GM said "Ok, you just Parried first attack but 2 following attacks from Hormagaunt hits you."

 

We all (Players and GM) were like this after checking rules then:

images.jpeg


Edited by Routa-maa, 22 December 2013 - 05:59 AM.

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