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NR's future: Block Play? Ban/Limit Cards? What do YOU think?


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#41 Grimwalker

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:50 AM

I think the facts speak for themselves that the winningest deck concepts get overrepresented in overall play and tournament placement, and I'm as sick as anybody else of seeing another boring Weyland "I Win" button, or so many Andy decks I'm just going to start calling her Number Six.

 

We got in an extra copy of the Season 2 Game Night kit, and aside from the Macs and the playmat, everyone around here is unenthused about more alt-art copies of Scorched Earth after seeing them in such great quantity during the Plugged-In Tour. So to shake things up, I proposed two guidelines:

  • No Core set Corporate IDs.
  • No Core set Consoles.

I thought it would be a modest step to get people out of the existing molds since ETF, BABW, and Desperado are probably the cards most overused right now. Criminal decks--Andy or Gabe--get a big boost of getting paid money for something theyd be doing anyway.

 

Unfortunately, most of my play group thought it was a terrible idea and threatened to stay away if that were the case. Personally, I was hoping that the Draft format would be out already, as that is a fun alternative by all accounts.



#42 Venthrac

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:11 AM

I know just how you feel, Grim. I think the draft format can do great things for the game, and I can't wait to try it out. It feels like just the kind of change of pace we'd love to play with.



#43 frybender

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:49 AM

Great discussion so far and a lot of good points brought up. As I said before I have to agree with Grim in that block play doesn't make sense for the LGS format. A strong core set means that a new player will be able to get into the game fairly easily and cheaply. Already today you can probably make a couple of very competitive decks with nothing but 2 core sets the deluxe expansion and two or three data packs. That's ~$150 and you can show up to a tournament and win. And if they want to keep spending money then they can buy the rest of the data packs slowly and if they don't they can stay competitive for a long time with just that initial investment. Block play may lower the entry cost very slightly (and probably wouldn't as I don't see how a new player can get into the game for any less than ~$150 no matter what kind of a block system FFG would use) but it would mean the upkeep costs of continuing to play would be monumental and would hurt the existing players. So I just don't see any benefit to implementing this.

 

Now as far as seeing the same decks over and over again. I want to reiterate that the lack of diversity in tournaments does not mean that there is a lack of alternatives in the actual game. Andy and Tag'nbag and HB FA are popular not only because they're strong but also because of how easy they are to play. Usually the decks kind of play themselves and there aren't a whole lot of tough choices to make. Compare this with a never-advance or shell game deck. It requires a lot of skill to read the runner and the game state in general and know when you can bait the runner or when you can safely put an agenda out there. So the lack of different decks may also indicate a lack of skill rather then a stale meta.

 

Another thing that you have to remember is that the tournament format itself favors fast decks that guarantee a win in a (relatively) short amount of time. For instance I have an almost all 1 point Jinteki PE deck that actually does quite well and is very fun to play. But I would never take it to a tournament because of how slow that deck is. At my FLGS where our league play has no time limit I love to run that deck but in a tournament I would have a whole lot of 1 prestige point games and that is not a way to win.


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#44 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 11:08 AM

Another thing that you have to remember is that the tournament format itself favors fast decks that guarantee a win in a (relatively) short amount of time. For instance I have an almost all 1 point Jinteki PE deck that actually does quite well and is very fun to play. But I would never take it to a tournament because of how slow that deck is. At my FLGS where our league play has no time limit I love to run that deck but in a tournament I would have a whole lot of 1 prestige point games and that is not a way to win.

 

I'll second that. I have a BWBI deck that is so not tournament-material it's unreal. Partly it's because it's a bit weird and experimental still while I tune it, but mainly it's because it's a bloody behemoth of a deck that sits ack an builds super-servers of advanacable ICE before pushing an Agenda through while the runner is poor (or after I blow up a breaker or two). It works, but it's SO UNBELIEVABLY SLOW.



#45 Venthrac

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 11:16 AM

Along these same lines, I've been revisiting Jinteki RP now that Sundew's out, and it's been a fun exercise. One of NRs great strengths is the wide variety of choice it offers to deck-builders, even within the limited card pool. I agree this is a case against limiting that card pool. Where I can, I am trying to encourage others to branch out a bit and experiment with new ideas.



#46 Demitroy

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:45 PM

The best way to get people to branch out and experiment is to build decks that take advantage of their current builds.  Unless they enjoy losing, they'll start experimenting quickly.



#47 Grimwalker

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:42 PM

Well, it's hard against the first turn kick to the sprouts that Number Six can do if she Account Siphons you, Vamps you for the rest of the credits in your pool, then spends the rest of the game dancing merrily through your servers while floating the tags because all her income is coming from events and Desperado. Andy hates a first turn Hedge Fund followed by Invasion of Privacy, though, so I'm playing NBN these days.


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#48 Demitroy

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:42 AM

... Andy hates a first turn Hedge Fund followed by Invasion of Privacy, though, so I'm playing NBN these days.

 

Which makes my point...



#49 Venthrac

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:15 AM

Indeed it does. It's also one of the reasons I love to play NBN - they can go on the attack and cripple the runner's resources, doing, in effect, the same thing that the Criminal faction likes to do to the corp.



#50 Grimwalker

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:33 AM

That theme is going to be getting more support, going forward. 

By the way, try Data Hound...it's more fun than you think.



#51 Demitroy

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:38 AM

I happen to love Data Hound.  Essentially net damage, except the corp gets to pick the card from the deck.  :D



#52 frybender

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:47 AM

I happen to love Data Hound.  Essentially net damage, except the corp gets to pick the card from the deck.  :D

Data hound trashes from the stack not from the grip so it's not like net damage at all. And it's so rare that it will actually fire. And the one thing the runners usually do fear when face checking is a sentry so they'll usually at least have a faeri. I don't think it's that good of ice at all actually.


Edited by frybender, 03 January 2014 - 11:53 AM.


#53 Grimwalker

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:00 PM

 

I happen to love Data Hound.  Essentially net damage, except the corp gets to pick the card from the deck.  :D

Data hound trashes from the stack not from the grip so it's not like net damage at all. And it's so rare that it will actually fire. And the one thing the runners usually do fear when face checking is a sentry so they'll usually at least have a faeri. I don't think it's that good of ice at all actually.

 

Yes, but facechecking naked is not at all uncommon, and a Data Hound doesn't usually present a solid enough threat to prompt them to *go get* a Killer program. You'd be surprised how often they will run right through it--the indexing's nice, too: I put two dead console draws and a useless plascrete on top and buried that Special Order five cards down.



#54 frybender

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

And you spent how many creds doing that? I just don't see myself having a slot open for such a situational card (and most likely 2 slots because it's a dead draw anytime after the first couple of turns). But we digress from the topic



#55 Grimwalker

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:17 PM

Two. Three, if you count the rez cost. I'm not saying it's the best card ever or that it should be in every deck, but I'm interested in seeing where that style of NBN goes as we get more cards like Invasion or Snoop as the card pool continues to expand (and thus we're back on topic ;) )


Edited by Grimwalker, 03 January 2014 - 12:22 PM.


#56 frybender

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:35 PM

I agree that it would be very cool to run a corp economy denial deck. But right now there just aren't enough pieces to make it work. It's hard to both protect yourself and damage the runner. Snoop is definitely a step in the right direction more so then invasion I think because because at least it's big ice that's hard to get around and if you have a couple of counters on it it becomes really scary.



#57 Grimwalker

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:05 PM

I call it "running on the runner," but it's not there yet. My attempts at it have basically been inefficient versions of Tag-punishment decks so far.



#58 AussieKSU

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:58 AM

I think the corp lacks many pieces of really meaningful ice. Being an old netrunner player as well, I notice it is far harder to secure many data forts, and keep the runner out. The runner SNOWBALLS very hard, which means many of the tourny decks have the intent that a corp deck will lose, and just try to score more than the opposition's corp deck.

 

Many of the runner cards (and I understand many will disagree) are overpowered. Self Modifying code comes to mind as being ridiculous. An on demand response to the few relevent pieces of ice that are rezzed. Compare it to special order... not even close.

 

Scheherazade comes to mind as another ridiculous option. I understand people will state that the threat of losing it is nailbiting, but I don't understand how you are losing this guy when there is very little risk in a "trash a program" routine actually going off once you are sufficiently GOD MODED. Power Shutdown was a nice counter to this, but with the aforementioned self modifying code, likely hosted, and rebounded with clone chips, I find it a difficult target.

 

Sustained credit gen solutions are simple to acquire for the runner. The two sound options in my opinion are Katie Jones and Magnum Opus... all your credit generation solved in one card - the corp must look for multiple solutions because credit generating assets are all trashable (hence not sustainable) or one shot operations, as well not sustainable. Even though runner cards can at times be trashed, the runner almost always has to engage to threated these installed cards.

 

Our games typically turn into a snowballed runner massing a credit pool to break whatever, and just waiting for the corp to install something. If your solution is traps, then a simple reveal diffuses threats here.

 

Turbo score corp decks aren't working that wonderfully either. The corp needs to draw about 18 cards to introduce 7 agenda points into the game (49 card deck, 20 agenda points in the deck, .408 agenda points per card, 17.15 cards to introduce 7 points). Sure you might score a few before the runner has reached GOD MODE, but 7 points... i doubt it.

 

Edit: Sorry, probably a bit off topic, shot this in a new thread.


Edited by AussieKSU, 31 January 2014 - 01:11 AM.


#59 AussieKSU

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:59 AM

And datahound, imo is garbage. Aforementioned irrelevent piece of ice.


Edited by AussieKSU, 31 January 2014 - 01:00 AM.





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