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Food for the worms - Trollfens Expansion


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#1 BentoSan

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:23 AM

So we were playing this quest with 3 heroes today and rather:

1) the rules are horrendously skewed towards the overlord

or

2) i am reading the quest rules totally wrong

 

 

The rules in this quest read:

"As an action, while adjacent to the sinking carriage, a hero or lieutenant may test strength. If he passes, remove each figure from the sinking carriage and place it in an adjacent empty space"

 

So we were playing it this way, the heroes had their first turn got no where near the sinking carriage. Popped a couple ranged shots off at the shadow dragon on the pond leaving it with 3 hit points left.

 

Next the overlord went, Bol Goreth moved adjacent to the carriage with 1 action, then with his second action tests strength (of which he has 6) and of course passes the test with his high strength. Next the overlord plays frenzy on the shadow dragon, moves adjacent to the villages with 1 move action, then proceeds to use the two attacks, both surge with fire breath and wipes out all 4 villages. The game was over in two monster activations of the overlord without a hope at all the the heroes could win.

 

What am i missing here ? Or what are the rules missing here ? Or this was a completely legitimate play and the overlord should have won ?

 

There is nothing in the rules about the lock having to be destroyed for the overlord or the players to remove the villages from the sinking raft when using a strength test. Adding this rule however seemed like it would break the other rules in the quest and things just did not make a lot of sense if this rule were implemented. Which then we felt would require other rule changes for the quest to make sense again - all in all it felt the rules that would make the quest make sense and be fair to both players seemed to deviate quite far from the original rules.

 

Instead of playing this quest and change the rules we decided that the overlord could pick which other trollfens quest he would like to do and we are instead doing this.

 

If anyone could shed any light on this we are all ears ! Even if you think its fair that the Overlord could win with 2 monster activations + 1 frenzy card in this manner because the heroes did not mange to kill the shadow dragon on their first go; your totally entitled to your opinion and should chime in.

 

 

 



#2 JerseyP

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:00 AM

I read the quest and it seems you guys didn't play it right. The only way the villager tokens get placed on the map at all is after the heroes attack the lock. Villager tokens are not figures. Heroes or that troll can test strength to knock the other figures off the carriage. The overlord wants to be on the sinking carriage because it will sink faster and he will get more fatigue tokens. The overlord can knock the heroes off because they need to be on it to attack the lock. Either way, villager tokens don't get placed yet. Try it again using these rules.



#3 Kunzite

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:46 AM

I would have to agree with JerseyP. I had to read the rules a number of times before playing it to come up with that conclusion. No where in the rules does it say that the villagers are figures therefore they would not be treated as figures. FFG is normally very clear on that fact. 


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#4 rfisha

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:54 AM

We played as JersyP, from memory the Overlord wants to get zombies on there to try to get more fatigue, while the heroes have to smash the lock to reveal the villagers.  If you don't get the lock broken before the number of fatigue counters hit then all is lost, otherwise the Overlord has to slay the remainder before the heroes rescue them.



#5 BentoSan

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:58 AM

Cool that makes sense ! thanks guys !

 

 

Villager tokens are not figures.

 

 


Villager tokens are not figures.

 

Thats exactly where i went wrong,  5 words make all the difference :D


Edited by BentoSan, 15 December 2013 - 05:00 AM.


#6 evilhead

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:14 PM

Uh. What am I misunderstanding? Right below the yellow Villager box in the middle column of the quest text, it says "Treat a villager as a hero figure with the following exceptions:..."



#7 BentoSan

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 06:40 AM

Uh. What am I misunderstanding? Right below the yellow Villager box in the middle column of the quest text, it says "Treat a villager as a hero figure with the following exceptions:..."

 

Well i guess that reopens this discussion lol. To be honest i have not looked at the rules since we decided to do another quest instead because this one was not making much sense to me. I am not around my quest book at the moment so i cant confirm that it actually says this. The online pdf FFG supplied does not seem to cover the quests and only the rules other wise i would confirm what you have said (i wont be able to do this until tomorrow).  http://www.fantasyfl...05_Rulebook.pdf

 

However if you are indeed correct about this, then i was probably correct originally about the rules on this being a bit iffy.

The only reasonable current explanation for the rules would then be:

Villages are not treated as being on the carriage until such a time they have been brought into play by the heroes performing a special action to do so (technically they are never on the board until such a time, thus are not really on the carriage). The quest was rather unclear about this though which led to my confusion in the first place.


Edited by BentoSan, 25 December 2013 - 11:09 AM.


#8 BentoSan

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 11:07 AM

Uh. What am I misunderstanding? Right below the yellow Villager box in the middle column of the quest text, it says "Treat a villager as a hero figure with the following exceptions:..."

 

Right... i am home now so i can confirm the quest guide says exactly this. The villagers are definitely hero figures. The rules should really say in there somewhere that Villagers are not considered to be "from" the sinking ship in regards to the strength test as it can be misleading.

 

The encounter actually looks pretty fun, its a shame i did not get to play it this time around.

 

Thanks for spotting this evilhead :)

 

ps: Merry xmas everyone :)


Edited by BentoSan, 25 December 2013 - 11:09 AM.


#9 rfisha

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 05:21 PM

 

Uh. What am I misunderstanding? Right below the yellow Villager box in the middle column of the quest text, it says "Treat a villager as a hero figure with the following exceptions:..."

 

 

Villages are not treated as being on the carriage until such a time they have been brought into play by the heroes performing a special action to do so (technically they are never on the board until such a time, thus are not really on the carriage). The quest was rather unclear about this though which led to my confusion in the first place.

 

 

That is the key point, not whether they are figures.  They are not on the carriage until the lock is broken.  I had to read this quest twice when we played it, but that is how it essentially works.  I was the heroes and got caned none the less.  What makes it worse is that you really need all your heroes up by the carriage to defend the villagers, making it easier for the Overlord to get his/her quest bonus from the Plague Worm surviving near the bottom of the map if he/she claims victory.


Edited by rfisha, 25 December 2013 - 05:22 PM.


#10 Steve-O

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 05:22 PM

JerseyP was mistaken about saying the villagers were not figures, but that's not the critical part of his answer.

The critical part is that the villagers are not placed on the map until the heroes have broken the lock and start pulling them out. He was correct about that part. Villagers cannot be affected by anything until they are actually on the map, whether they're figures or not.

Only heroes can attack the lock and only heroes can pull villagers out of the carriage, so there's no way the OL could kill them all turn 1. Especially if the heroes got "nowhere near the carriage" in their first collective turn.


As an aside, tokens that are "treated as heroes" count as hero figures for only three purposes: OL cards, hero abilities and monster attacks. Special quest actions, such as heroes or LTs performing a strength test to rock the carriage, are not on that list.

#11 BentoSan

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 01:53 AM

First up i just wanna say i totally agree with you there Steve-O.

 

However i still think the quest could have been a bit more clear on the subject though. The quest is all about the saving the villager figures from the sinking carriage and the strength test says:

 

"As an action, while adjacent to the sinking carriage, a hero or lieutenant may test strength. If he passes, remove each figure from the sinking carriage and place it in an adjacent empty space"

 

 

As an aside, tokens that are "treated as heroes" count as hero figures for only three purposes: OL cards, hero abilities and monster attacks. Special quest actions, such as heroes or LTs performing a strength test to rock the carriage, are not on that list.

The quest guide also says that any rules in the quest guide override any rules in the rule book which makes things a bit sketchy.



#12 Steve-O

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 09:49 PM

The quest guide also says that any rules in the quest guide override any rules in the rule book which makes things a bit sketchy.


The quest guide does overrule the rulebook in cases where they contradict one another.

 

The rule for tokens being "treated as heroes" is that they only count as (hero) figures for the three purposes I listed.  The fact that other rules exist which refer to "figures" does not contradict the idea that only these three things count for such tokens.

 

There are also other general effects in the rulebook that are applied to "heroes" but are not applied to tokens "treated as heroes."  For example, the rule that the OL gets to draw a card every time he defeats a "hero."  The OL does not get to draw a card when he defeats a token which is "treated as a hero."  This is not a contradiction of terms, it is simply an effect which is out of scope for the "tokens treated as a hero" rules.


Edited by Steve-O, 27 December 2013 - 09:53 PM.


#13 Schmiegel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 01:36 PM

My apologies for exhuming this foul topic from the muck...   :unsure:

 

But we're playing this encounter in a few days and I remain confused, even after reading the above discussion. Steve-O asserts that nothing can happen to the villagers until they are "actually on the map", and that that doesn't happen until the lock is broken and they're pulled out of the carriage by a hero.

 

That sounds good. But what exactly happens when a hero or lieutenant tests strength and passes? The answer provided in the rules is "remove each figure from the sinking carriage and place it in an adjacent empty space."

 

Does that differ significantly from what happens when a hero rescues a villager? In each case, the villager token is placed  in a space on the map. In each case the villager is now "outside" the carriage, are they not? Further, if the passed strength test causes each villager figure to be placed on the map, outside the carriage, why would it be necessary for a hero to break the lock on the carriage and "rescue" a villager since they're already now out of the carriage (and on the map) anyway?

 

After reading the back and forth conversation you guys had above, I still didn't see that particular issue addressed or resolved. Are we just saying it's too confusing to touch and kind of inserting some implied house rules or have I absolutely whiffed on attempting to understand the resolution here? 

 

Thanks in advance for any help!!



#14 BsnOne

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:40 PM

My apologies for exhuming this foul topic from the muck...   :unsure:

 

But we're playing this encounter in a few days and I remain confused, even after reading the above discussion. Steve-O asserts that nothing can happen to the villagers until they are "actually on the map", and that that doesn't happen until the lock is broken and they're pulled out of the carriage by a hero.

 

That sounds good. But what exactly happens when a hero or lieutenant tests strength and passes? The answer provided in the rules is "remove each figure from the sinking carriage and place it in an adjacent empty space."

 

Does that differ significantly from what happens when a hero rescues a villager? In each case, the villager token is placed  in a space on the map. In each case the villager is now "outside" the carriage, are they not? Further, if the passed strength test causes each villager figure to be placed on the map, outside the carriage, why would it be necessary for a hero to break the lock on the carriage and "rescue" a villager since they're already now out of the carriage (and on the map) anyway?

 

After reading the back and forth conversation you guys had above, I still didn't see that particular issue addressed or resolved. Are we just saying it's too confusing to touch and kind of inserting some implied house rules or have I absolutely whiffed on attempting to understand the resolution here? 

 

Thanks in advance for any help!!

We just played this one the other day, seemed fairly straight forward once the rules were read. The only way for a villager token to be placed on the map is for a hero to stand on the carriage, break the lock with attacks, and use an action to rescue one.

 

The Overlord is attempting to "drown" the carriage by having monsters stand on it and force it further into the bog. Each OL turn that starts with a figure standing on the carriage, he gains 2 fatigue tokens (rather than the normal 1), thus speeding his goal of attaining 9 fatigue (sinking the carriage and any villagers still inside) and bringing out his plague worms. The strength test is there as a mechanic for a hero to essentially "shake" the carriage and force any figure off of it. So a monster would only want to shake the carriage to push a hero off of it from attacking the lock (since a hero must be on the carriage to perform that attack). It wouldn't shake the carriage and suddenly all of the villagers come flying out. In fact that would be the opposite of what the OL wants to do (sink the carriage and drown the villagers inside).

 

Anyway, we heroes prevailed by killing all of the monsters on the map before the OL got 9 fatigue in his corner, didn't even have to rescue a villager from the carriage, though it was a close one.



#15 Schmiegel

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:58 PM

Thanks BsnOne!! That is incredibly helpful information, I very much appreciate it. From the previous discussion, it doesn't seem like I'm the only player not to have seen this angle from first reading. So I guess my feedback to the designers is please add a couple of explanatory sentences in these kinds of cases to give it a touch more clarity. Some people got it, but others (myself included) didn't.. 

 

Anyway, thanks again BsnOne. That makes perfect sense now!



#16 Subt1e

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:07 PM

That's what the forums are for!

They might add it to the errata eventually.

 

I haven't gotten Trollfens... might skip it, Nerkhall looks cooler.

Can always get it later.






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