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Swift and Lightning Attacks


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#1 Leto

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 06:01 PM

Sup. I have a question here. More like a request.

Could someone please point to the rule that directly says that there CANNOT be TWO swift or lightning attacks in one round? I've been searching for it for some time, with no success. The only real evidence that this Codex Unapproved action cannot be done is not in the Core, but in the tome of Fate in Slaaneshi Psychic Power description. Moreover, due to shitty wording, core actually says that there CAN be two swift or lightning attacks with dual wielding. On the page 244. And neither the Swift nor Lighting Attack talent descriptions say that there is only one per round can be made. Errata fixes have changed nothing. WTF?



#2 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 12:21 AM

I can't point to the rule, but I'm pretty sure the rule is that you cannot make more than one attack action (or in fact, which a few exceptions, more than one action of any kind of a given subtype -- attack, concentration, movement) in a round. I believe the ruleyou are looking for is around that part of the book defining actions (in the beginning of the combat section?).

 

There can be two LAs with dual wielding but that's because it's part of the same attack action.



#3 Calgor Grim

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:13 AM

P234

 

 

In addition, characters in Black Crusade may only take one action with the Attack subtype and one action with the Concentration subtype during their turn.

 

 

 

And since Swift Attack and Lightning Attack have the subtype of "Attack" you can only do one of them. But they do both say that if you are dual wielding then you can also follow the rules for Two Weapon Wield.

 

Then you get P244

 

• If a character with the Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee) Talent is armed with two melee weapons, he may perform a melee Attack Action (either a Standard Attack, Swift Attack, or Lightning Attack) with one of these weapons. He may then perform a melee Attack Action (either a

Standard Attack, Swift Attack, or Lightning Attack) with the other weapon, with any applicable modifiers to the Test. This attack may be against targets in melee.

 

But of course you get some silly penalty for two weapon wielding.


Loyal Missionary Father Grim of the Kingston 293rd Storm Troopers


#4 Leto

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:58 AM

So this means there can be two lightnings with duals after all. Oh, well. Thanks, anyway.

And yeah, I know about the subtypes, just got a bit confused with the dual wielding rules.



#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:43 PM

It's really not that bad. In the absence of what's it called, blade dancer, a character with a WS of 50 two-weapon wielding with Lightning Attack and Ambidextrous only has a 30% chance to hit with each one. 40% with the first one if he Aimed first.



#6 Leto

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:38 PM

Hah! You just don't know my fellow players-powergamers. It not really that bad only because they know its not that interesting to play such a melee grinder. Still, nevermind, I do have ways of dealing with it.



#7 Annaamarth

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 08:02 PM

If they're attracting too much attention, lascannon and R-34 autocannon make great 'sniper' weapons.  Good luck lightning attacking at five hundred yards, and if you have properly established, overlapping fields of fire you can drain those reaction dodges pretty fast.  A horde of lasgun armed mooks to act as a literal meat shield can keep him occupied and honest, too.

 

In other words, 'I will see your Khorne Berserker and raise you an Imperial Guard platoon with attached heavy weapons section."  Assault marines and Bloodletters work too- they come with lightning attack, melee weapons and an eagerness to use them.

 

I think Bogi and I have been at loggerheads lately over my willingness to let my players get away with stuff, and that's fine.  There is another rule I let the players know- anything you can do, I can do better :)


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#8 Tenebrae

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 06:47 AM

I think Bogi and I have been at loggerheads lately over my willingness to let my players get away with stuff, and that's fine.  There is another rule I let the players know- anything you can do, I can do better :)

A sentiment I largely agree with.
"This is WH40K. If I can't kill your character, I've made a mistake."

#9 Annaamarth

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:37 AM

^ I lol'd.  I rather like that line, I may steal it- although my goal is still usually to just threaten them with death... or send them running.

 

Having said that, I do admit that while a tpk can damage a game irrevocably, occasionally the party is in need of... pruning.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#10 Tenebrae

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:50 PM

Indeed. And I rarely kill characters either, it's more of a blanket statement.



#11 Drachdhar

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

And that is how my 'zerker with WS 70+ and best quality weapons(Legacy) killed a C'tan Shard in one round and still had half the dmg rolls left to roll when it went dead. Because you do get Ambi, Dual Wield and Bladedancer ASAP. And with that and Best quality ****, its an unmodified roll... except against that bigass monster which is actually easier to hit.

 

But been looking it over in the rules, and they are conflicting everywhere. We houseruled it so that you cant do two Lightning Attacks in one round. One Lightning and one Swift however... Hope some writer notices the apparent lack of clarifications in the rules sometime and they update that errata, some time this century.



#12 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:15 AM

And that is how my 'zerker with WS 70+ and best quality weapons(Legacy) killed a C'tan Shard in one round and still had half the dmg rolls left to roll when it went dead. Because you do get Ambi, Dual Wield and Bladedancer ASAP. And with that and Best quality ****, its an unmodified roll... except against that bigass monster which is actually easier to hit.

 

 

 

Bigass monsters aren't easier to hit, because Size only applies to BS (according to answers given to various rules questions).



#13 Terraneaux

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:45 PM

 

Where's it say that?



#14 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:46 PM

 

 

Where's it say that?

 

 

If you look at the description of the Size Trait, it refers to big targets being easier to shoot. Naturally, this led to many discussions on various formums here, which led to numerous rules questions to the designers, which led to the answer that it was a modifier to BS tests.

 

If you google or search on the forums long enough, you can probably find them.

 

Here's one:

 

From FFG,

 

"As per the rules on page 249 or the Deathwatch Core Rulebook, size is only a factor when making ranged attacks.

Thanks for your question,

Tim

On Feb 14, 2012, at 6:20 PM"


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 10 January 2014 - 09:47 PM.


#15 Calgor Grim

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:04 PM

It also makes sense. If you're in melee range then it doesn't matter if it is a carnifex of a heretic. You have mostly the same chance of hitting them with a big pointy stick up close. Whereas a mile away the modifier matters.


Loyal Missionary Father Grim of the Kingston 293rd Storm Troopers


#16 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:35 PM

I'd caution against making judgments in rules 'because muh realism' in a setting as intentionally divorced from realism as 40k.



#17 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:54 PM

40K is divorced from realism in the sense that specific basic assumptions of the universe differ, not in the sense that you can flap your arms and fly.



#18 Terraneaux

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:07 PM

Well, if an ork believes it hard enough, and he's got enough friends...



#19 Drachdhar

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:35 PM

Well, if it isnt in the Errata or Core rules... which I am not entirely sure of atm, who would know? :P

 

Still at, 1d10+29 dmg and double Tearing, and 1d10+26 dmg and double Tearing, that C'tan punk goes down pretty fast.



#20 Drachdhar

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:36 PM

//Still cant edit... wtf...

 

And that was when not in Frenzy, add 2 more dmg then due to Crushing Blow bonus from both WS and S.






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