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Trying to Put a Sister of Battle onto a Rogue Trader Ship


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#41 CaptainStabby

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:58 PM

To be fair, what with not really being in the Imperium all that much, I think a RT or Dynasty would have to be making some epically bad decisions to even draw the attention of the Inquisition.

 

One SoB coming back and being all "Oh he didnt shoot a Kroot" isn't going to raise any eyebrows in the slightest. Besides it would likely take decades if not centuries for a formal complaint to get to the eyes of someone who MIGHT give a crap.


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#42 LordBlades

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:42 PM

To be fair, what with not really being in the Imperium all that much, I think a RT or Dynasty would have to be making some epically bad decisions to even draw the attention of the Inquisition.

 

One SoB coming back and being all "Oh he didnt shoot a Kroot" isn't going to raise any eyebrows in the slightest. Besides it would likely take decades if not centuries for a formal complaint to get to the eyes of someone who MIGHT give a crap.

 

Pretty much this. If you don't personally piss off somebody with enough authority to go after you himself, the Imperium is reaaaaly slow to take note and react. Think Badab war. It took the Imperium about 200 years to notice there's a guy buidling his own pocket empire and do something about it.



#43 Radwraith

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:20 PM

To be fair, what with not really being in the Imperium all that much, I think a RT or Dynasty would have to be making some epically bad decisions to even draw the attention of the Inquisition.

 

One SoB coming back and being all "Oh he didnt shoot a Kroot" isn't going to raise any eyebrows in the slightest. Besides it would likely take decades if not centuries for a formal complaint to get to the eyes of someone who MIGHT give a crap.

I also agree with this. It would take outright piracy of Imperial shipping or raiding Nominally Imperial worlds (who may have Astropathic) choirs to even get any attention beyond maybe a temper tantrum from a very lonely SoB. Conspiring to transport heretics from Iniquity into the imperium MIGHT get you in trouble but only if you actually DID IT! 



#44 Erathia

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:37 PM

I think that's debatable. A little light piracy and smuggling might be accepted, but Chaos Raiders also won't (usually) spend part of their time in the Imperium conducting legitimate business and engaging in daring, Xenos-filled trades inside of the Expanse. The Inquisition might well single your Dynasty out to make an example to all of the other Rogue Traders in order to remind them that the Inquisition is ALWAYS watching.

 

That's really why they sometimes have to crack down on the little guys who are only doing a few questionable activities, because people need to believe that no matter what you do, the Inquisition might be judging you.


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#45 CaptainStabby

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:15 PM

It would take a MASSIVE amount of effort to take on a Dynasty or even a single RT head up. They have the resources of a planetary governor at bare minimum. If a Governor goes astray it generally takes a war to bring them back in line. That's costly.

 

Revoking a warrant of trade would be a big, BIG deal, seeing as they are something that was started by the Emprah hisself. Some dating back to the great crusade and all... Rogue Traders fall under the "Peers of the Imperium" umbrella, they rank right up there with High Lords and Inquisitors.

 

I think you are much more likely to see a RT have an "accident" out in the dark than you are to see a battlefleet arrayed against them, or a Inquisitor trying to mess with their warrant. It would be much easier to move down the like of succession till you get someone more in line.



#46 LordBlades

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:13 AM

Something that just occurred to me: does the Inquisition even have the authority to revoke a Warrant of Trade?

As an act of the Emperor himself, I assume it bears at least the same if not more weight as a decision adopted by the High Lords of Terra, and I don't really recall seeing any claims anywhere that the Inquisition has the right to override the high Lords.



#47 Tenebrae

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:47 AM

Something that just occurred to me: does the Inquisition even have the authority to revoke a Warrant of Trade?

No, Formally speaking Warrents of Trade are granted only by the High Lords of Terra and may only be rescinded by that same group. Ofcourse Inquisitors could send off the paperwork and evidence and go after the RT before the formalities are finalized.

 

Or if the RT is in imperial space, they might simply arrange to board and burn the RT, regardless of the presence of a Warrent.

 

Assasinations are usually easier though.



#48 Radwraith

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:02 AM

IMO the Inquisitor can NOT independently revoke the Warrant. But he CAN petition the Warrant's Issueing authority (The Adeptus Terra in most cases) to review it and possibly revoke it. Remember, An Inquisitor is ALSO a Peer of the Imperium. I Imagine the process is similar to trying to try another Inquisitor. The Obvious Caveat here would be the age Of the Warrant itself. If your Rogue trader is one of the Uniquely rare individuals to be decended from a dynasty that was Commissioned by the Emperor himself good luck! No one in their right mind is going to mess with that! (Though Assassins are still fair game! In fact, this is probably exactly the situation where the AT would unleash a "True" temple Assassin!) However, Most surviving warrants are no where near that old or prestigious (Comparatively). Thus, Especially with a newer Warrant, The Inquisitor could petition for it's review and possible suspension or revocation. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a "big deal". It certainly would! For the Inquisitor, The loss of influence (Their primary currency in the Imperium) for failing once the process began would be correspondingly severe! (Perhaps even leading to the sanction of the Inquisitor himself!) After all, politically, the Inquisitor just called into question the judgment of the party that issued the warrant! In this kind of event the Inquisitor is hoping the RT will NOT show for his review and thus he wins by default! Like I said; If the RT does in fact show up for this review and can provide a plausible explanation of how HE FELT his actions benefited the Imperium the Inquisitor is screwed! The RT is expected to use his judgement in such matters and that is a HUGE hurdle to overcome!  

 

I guess my point is: While an Inquisitor certainly DOES have the authority to investigate a RT it's not something they're going to do lightly! As has been stated earlier, It's going to take a LOT more than a single Pissed off SoB to invoke his attention! Of course depending on Just how pissed off the Sister was might cause other problems! If she can win over her Canoness enough she could possibly petition for more direct remedies! This could be a whole separate set of problems but again, The Canoness is not going up against a RT without a DAMNING GOOD REASON! 



#49 Wincent

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:19 AM

Some good food for thought here.

My two cents: PC SoB won't be some rank and file Sister just like every other character is a at least a lesser "noble" on his own. I mostly agree with Radwraith but aren't we making RT a bit to legal action-proof? I mean we're taking about damn inquisitors no some willy-nilly governors or IG generals. I understand influance system working in the Imperium yet still this is inquisitors's very own turf and by default they should've a neat edge here.

Consider: what should RT do to take down some random inquisitor by legal action only? If answer is the same or almost the same as in the case of inquisitor taking down RT then imho there's something wrong.



#50 Quietus1

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 01:42 PM

The inquisition technically holds no sway over a RT, period. The Imperium is a feudal system, and they are of equal rank. To legally take action against the other, they have to go to someone of HIGHER rank, which in both parties cases is only the High Lords of Terra.

 

In addition, Rogue Traders are EXPECTED (and all but required to to their job, really) to be heretical to some degree. Especially in any dealings with Xenos. As the books state, many in the inquisition would love to declare most RTs heretics, but they simply aren't allowed to.

 

The inquisitor(s) in question are at a further disadvantage due to the very nature of the Inq not being anything resembling a unified body. Unless he's gone completely off the rails and their is DAMNING evidence to this fact (major traffiiking of halo devices and the like to parties other than the mechanicus), the RT isn't up against "The Inquisition", they are up against one inquisitor or a small cadre thereof, whose influence may quickly go to crap if they move against a RT that other inquisitors feel is legit. Hell, its entirely possible the RT might never even learn of the inquisitors ire, or have to get involved beyond a quiet word; RTs being what they are and going where they do they might well have friends in the Inquisition....

 

Whereas the RT has (unless the warrant is newly minted) an entire dynasty to back him, likely including what would amount to a warfleet and certainly including vast economic influence and alliances.

 

And if the RT is doing what he is supposed to and operating primarily on the outside of the imperium and the fringes thereof, if the Inq goes after the RT and catches up to him out there, where the RT "speaks with the voice of the emperor", the RT actually outranks the inquisitor and can, technically, deal with the inquisitor as he sees fit. 

 

Short of the aforementioned damning evidence, an inquisitor's only real recourse is to...

 

1. Use assasination and  well-concealed catspaws to try and take the RT down.

 

2. Find another RT willing to take them on (with the knowledge that if it isn't a clean job or they fail, it could lead to a war between the dynasties as damaging as an Inquisition War.

 

3. Gather whatever allies they can bring to bear and try to take out the RT as quietly as they can themselves, with the knowledge that, from a legal standpoint, they are technically in the wrong and there will be few if any repercussions for the RT killing them in self-defense, whereas if they succeed and word gets out, the Dynasty might seek revenge.



#51 Radwraith

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 01:55 PM

Some good food for thought here.

My two cents: PC SoB won't be some rank and file Sister just like every other character is a at least a lesser "noble" on his own. I mostly agree with Radwraith but aren't we making RT a bit to legal action-proof? I mean we're taking about damn inquisitors no some willy-nilly governors or IG generals. I understand influance system working in the Imperium yet still this is inquisitors's very own turf and by default they should've a neat edge here.

Consider: what should RT do to take down some random inquisitor by legal action only? If answer is the same or almost the same as in the case of inquisitor taking down RT then imho there's something wrong.

Unfortunately that's pretty much the way it would work. A RT could, if he felt it was warranted, petition to have the Inquisitor sanctioned for interfering with his Holy remit (The Warrant).  This would probably trigger the same review process in reverse! 

Remember: in the Byzantine structure of the Imperium there is only Bureaucracy! ;)  :rolleyes: The Imperium functions very much like Colonial Europe. Slow communications mean that governmental actions are very slow to play out. Because of this the Status of a given Individual is key to how fast justice comes to them. For an average Imperial citizen it's pretty quick since an Arbites can pronounce sentence and carry it out on the spot! (They were borrowed from Judge Dredd after all.) For a RT or Inquisitor it's a lot tougher! These people are Peers of the Imperium! On the same order as Space Marine Chapter masters and Ecclesiarchs. They are notoriously difficult to take action against as the plaintiff must have the "standing" to bring such action. While actual Arbites Judges Have that standing so do RT's and Inquisitors. Even among their own ranks this is not an easy thing. When they start crossing it becomes even more difficult! The Soul Drinker's were a good example of exactly this kind of situation. An Astartes Chapter master is not someone you want to cross generally. Neither is an Inquisitor and Neither is a Rogue trader! The SoB is NOT a peer of the Imperium and for that matter, neither is her Canoness! They would have to petition a higher authority for actual legal action. Of course that does not stop them from taking direct action to destroy  perceived Heresy. This could include purging the RT's Imperial assets in an attempt to bring him to them! Depending on the RT, This could set off a star spanning conflict that the Inquisition and the Adeptus Terra would only hear about after it was over! In this situation the winner writes the history books so the Authorities would more or less shrug!



#52 Bankinus

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 11:48 PM

The inquisition technically holds no sway over a RT, period. The Imperium is a feudal system, and they are of equal rank. To legally take action against the other, they have to go to someone of HIGHER rank, which in both parties cases is only the High Lords of Terra.

 

In addition, Rogue Traders are EXPECTED (and all but required to to their job, really) to be heretical to some degree. Especially in any dealings with Xenos. As the books state, many in the inquisition would love to declare most RTs heretics, but they simply aren't allowed to.

Except the Inquisition's entire purpose is to somewhat side-step the usual hierarchies. Yes Rogue Traders are peers of the Imperium, but so are planetary governours and those most certainly do fall under the perview of the inquisition.

However, that still doesn't mean that the inquisitor can judge a Rogue Trader as simply as he can judge other peers of the Imperium (and easy in this case of course still means literally buildings full of paper work, but that is why the adept is an archetypical Inquisitorial Acolyte). Because as you correctly said there are certain things that are expected of Rogue Traders. And the reason for that is that they literally have a piece of paper that says the can do those things.

And this leads to what we already know:

If you broker some xenos artefacts there is little an inquisitor can and will do.

If you open fire on the Scintillan system monitor ships, because they wouldn't surrender their vessels to you, they can and will.



#53 Regis Eisen

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:53 PM

When it comes to inquisitors vs rogue traders, its not so much an issue of necessarily revoking a warrant as it is an inquisitor going out of his or her way to really make things difficult for the dynasty.  Yeah, Inquisitor X can't do anything about the Warrant or the fact that in the Expanse Rogue Trader A speaks with the voice of the Emperor.  That said, the tithes and shipments headed back through Port Wander can be subject to searches and seizures which effectively cut off profits from reaching the dynasty at large, making trade difficult and cutting off resources for repairs and acquisitions out in the Expanse.  If that goes on long enough, other RT's are likely to step in and take advantage.

 

Can RT's get around this?  Of course, but a well connected Inquisitor is likely to be a major pain and bring about the downfall of a dynasty without touching the warrant directly.


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#54 Amroth

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:55 AM

I like that Regis a much more intelligent way to handle an Inquisitor taking exception with an RT and going about it in an intelligent manner.

 

It also adds a lot of role-playing and plot hooks for the campaign.



#55 Nameless2all

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:13 PM

I guess the issue is this. An Inquisitor can't touch a RT Warrant or the family directly without concrete evidence, but ....... What happens when said Inquisitor makes it know to every associate, family member, rival, and employe that the Inquisition is looking into their organization. It's like saying I want to be affiliated with "enter well known franchise or important person" even though the FBI/KGB/Secret Service is looking at him/her/them for treason, criminal activity, weapons smuggling, human sex trafficking, bribery, murder, solicitation, conspiracy, blackmail, kidnapping, and jay walking. Not all of these will stick in a court of law (and maybe the Inquisitor isn't trying to make them stick, and is satisfied to spread rumors and randomly bang on your door at night, metaphorically speaking of course), but there goes your reputation.

Edited by Nameless2all, 14 December 2013 - 10:16 PM.

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#56 CaptainStabby

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:22 PM

Oh absolutely. I love that take on it and it's the most likely path an Inquisitor would take imo. Or sneaking a throne agent on ship or worse an assassin. The amount of clownpants nonsense a RT would have to get up to to justify a head on confrontation with the inquisition would be ridiculous. Though, if you look at that "you know you're playing RT when" thread....






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