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Expanding Expansions


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#21 aniedrig

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 05:00 PM

Plot decks can fix this. Actually, plot decks can fix a lot of issues. The lieutenant packs are already expansions to an expansion, and they are already using the plot decks to buff certain monster of a specific trait. This is great - it gives the overlord a reason to pick monsters of that trait instead of only the strongest ones any chance they get.

 

They could use the plot deck of a lieutenant from a specific expansion to allow monsters of a specific trait to inflect a condition from that expansion. Its just a question of whether or not they will do that.

 

I think if they want to make more monsters inflict burn or weaken in the future, they will just include a few cards and tokens in that expansion. I don't think it ups the cost that much. I hope so anyway, I don't want 12 conditions.

 

I totally agree. I think that might be the best and easiest solution to make expansions cross-compatible, which was the whole reason for starting this thread, anyway.

 

so to sum it all up, please FFG make expansions more cross-compatible, so we don't end up with conditions only being used by one single monster group or board tiles only being used in one single quest, etc.



#22 JBouthietteJr

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:36 PM

They could use the plot deck of a lieutenant from a specific expansion to allow monsters of a specific trait to inflect a condition from that expansion. Its just a question of whether or not they will do that.


The problem with this is that the LT packs are also meant to be independent of the boxed expansions: they're really *not* expanding expansions. They provide the oft-sought LT miniature, but the Plot decks are meant to be compatible with as little as just the base game, i.e. you don't need Lair of the Wyrm to use Valyndra and her Plot deck. Thus, she'd never cause Burn, nor would her deck cause Burn. Like I said in my other post, I think to fix this, you need general abilities like Subdue that can apply any condition. This allows for base game conditions to be used, as well as any combination of expansion conditions.
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#23 aniedrig

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:16 AM

[...]

i.e. you don't need Lair of the Wyrm to use Valyndra and her Plot deck. Thus, she'd never cause Burn, nor would her deck cause Burn. 

[...]

 

is that really the case? it might be, i agree. we will see, when she arrives. 

However, i think at least the lieutenant packs, should presuppose the corresponding expansions,

in which those lieutenants were introduced, don't you? if they did, plot decks could easily solve this problem.

 

i mean that's the whole point of this thread, i.e. expressing the wish for expansions (and lieutenant packs) to expand or build on other expansions. basically, i never meant to discuss "if"s and "when"s, but to express my wish for what i just said, hoping that someone from FFG might read and think about this  :)



#24 Steve-O

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:12 AM

is that really the case? it might be, i agree. we will see, when she arrives. 
However, i think at least the lieutenant packs, should presuppose the corresponding expansions,
in which those lieutenants were introduced, don't you? if they did, plot decks could easily solve this problem.


Actually, no. The entire purpose of the Plot Deck and the idea of summoning an LT into a quest he didn't originally appear in was to make them independent of the expansion they came from, so they can be used anywhere.

FFG even said at one point (IIRC) that the original plan was to just release the miniatures, but then they realized that would make the LT Pack only useable with the expansion it came from, and that wasn't good enough.

Valyndra's LT card in LoW has Burn, her "agent" card in the Valyndra LT pack does not. So we can already see that they're doing exactly the opposite - removing conditions (and other expansion-dependent material) if the LT previously used them.


Perhaps they could include condition cards and a small sheet of tokens with the LT Pack if they wanted to run with this idea, that way even people without the original expansion could use the condition. All the general rules for conditions (beyond the specific effects of a condition, which are all on the card) are in the base game, so they wouldn't need to reprint any rules, just the components. They don't appear to be doing this with the current run of LTs, though.

Edited by Steve-O, 08 December 2013 - 08:21 AM.


#25 JBouthietteJr

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:00 PM

I don't see any issue with turning this into a discussion. It'd be a pretty boring thread if it was just "Hey I want FFG to expand on expansions" and every response was "Me too." I also think it's important to share information, and dispell speculation that has been proven one way or the other, such as Steve-O and I explaining agents will probably have little connection between their Plot decks and their LTs in expansions, so it's unrealistic to expect agents to inflict expansion conditions.
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#26 Lilikin

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:27 AM

Here is a thought then, does the same apply to the green dice?  Will they HAVE to include a green dice with every expansion that includes an item/ability that needs a green dice?  because if thats the case there is going to be a lot of green dice doing the rounds (or this dice existing full stop is lame), this shows a bit of a ball drop from FFG as surely not including one in the base game then creating one in just the first add on (which was announced before the base game was released so they must have known they would have needed the extra dice) is going to cost a lot of money for FFG to include one in every possible little box expansion (just checked there is two in the picture for SoN(is that what we are calling it
???)) that had had one since then based on current usage and if they only include the green dice in these three expansions (I recall) it's a total waste imo.  I don't see also what would be wrong with having a cycle of add on's for Descent 2E for a basic edition (that we are currently in) then an Advanced addition add on which could give FFG a chance to say get this as a deluxe expansion (AD2E(Advanced Descent second edition)) and all expansions after this will need this and at least the base game as well but interacts with all other basic add-ons and include the cards/tokens etc needed for the advanced add ons.

 

Just a thought, there is precedence for both, stripping abilities (Valyndra and burn effectively being stripped for the Lieutenant add on) and the green dice where they added a non core item so will have to include it in every add on.  As well as the one set a long time ago and by a different range for AH but still a precedence.

 

Here is a final thought also, they will eventually run out of conditions surely, when they have the ingrown toe nail condition and the not tonight love condition (headache) they will have to come back round to some of the old ones, and that really isn't the end of the world!!! Just a thought!!!

 

Lilikin

 

Edit I) too much thinking (just a thought!!! ;) ) apologies

 

Edit II) Apologies LotW didn't have a green dice just rechecked the contents was first seen in LoR with 2 then 1 in Trollfens and two in SoN (according to the picture!)


Edited by Lilikin, 09 December 2013 - 10:51 AM.

Wait lassie what's that noise? A few people telling FFG on a forum how to make their own games, well lassie that told them

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#27 Kunzite

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:16 AM

I don't see any issue with turning this into a discussion. It'd be a pretty boring thread if it was just "Hey I want FFG to expand on expansions" and every response was "Me too." I also think it's important to share information, and dispell speculation that has been proven one way or the other, such as Steve-O and I explaining agents will probably have little connection between their Plot decks and their LTs in expansions, so it's unrealistic to expect agents to inflict expansion conditions.

 

I don't know, sir. I am not commenting a whole lot, but I am finding this rather interesting. Please resume, fellas. 


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#28 rfisha

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:31 PM

I am not a big fan that Valandra will lose her Burn ability - they shouldminclude the condition in the Lieutenant pack, as they have done with the green dice. I have no problem with there being dependancies on expansions, but if you are going for a modular approach then all the pieces should be there.

#29 Lilikin

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:54 PM

I don't know how big she is except she is 6 space so if the same size as the shadow dragons, she will be 10x the size of the feeble 1 space first set of goblin size lieutenants. Her cost is only twice that of them and while the card count otherwise should be the same I think you'd be paying mini expansion money for her if they included another set of mini cards and token for the condition.
Wait lassie what's that noise? A few people telling FFG on a forum how to make their own games, well lassie that told them

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#30 Steve-O

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:19 PM

Here is a thought then, does the same apply to the green dice?  Will they HAVE to include a green dice with every expansion that includes an item/ability that needs a green dice?


Yes, that is the case. And it's exactly what has been happening. LoR had 2 green dice, TTF had 1, and SoN apparently has 2 more. Whether future expansions will include green dice or just stop using them remains to be seen.

Because if thats the case there is going to be a lot of green dice doing the rounds


Indeed, I suspect there will be. People who like having extra dice sets probably won't mind too much, though, since there aren't any green dice in the extra dice sets that are sold separately, IIRC.

This shows a bit of a ball drop from FFG as surely not including one in the base game then creating one in just the first add on (which was announced before the base game was released so they must have known they would have needed the extra dice)


Technically LoR wasn't announced until after the core box was out. Not long after, mind you, and I'm sure they at least had ideas about the green die before the core set shipped, so your statement still stands.

As for dropping the ball, I agree that it seems like a silly way to go about things, but it's the sort of thing FFG has been doing with a lot of game lines - reintroducing the same "new mechanic" in multiple expansions just to keep them all independent. Including D1E. So although I agree they could probably do things better, it seems to be a deliberate design choice on their part, not a lapse in judgement.

I don't see also what would be wrong with having a cycle of add on's for Descent 2E for a basic edition (that we are currently in) then an Advanced addition add on which could give FFG a chance to say get this as a deluxe expansion (AD2E(Advanced Descent second edition)) and all expansions after this will need this and at least the base game as well but interacts with all other basic add-ons and include the cards/tokens etc needed for the advanced add ons.


They have released "expansions for expansions" in other game lines in the past, as you allude to Miskatonic Horror in the AH game line, so they might do the same for D2E once it builds up enough.

Here is a final thought also, they will eventually run out of conditions surely, when they have the ingrown toe nail condition and the not tonight love condition (headache) they will have to come back round to some of the old ones, and that really isn't the end of the world!!! Just a thought!!!


Indeed. I wouldn't mind if they repeated old conditions in new expansions. Or if they just stopped with conditions and started doing something else new instead. There will obviously be a limit on good ideas for new conditions, and I rather suspect it will be reached before they run out of expansion ideas in general.

As I said before, conditions are something they really should have put all in the core set. Firstly so any monsters can use them, but also so that they could all be thought out together. FFG sometimes seems to forget about potential interactions between two different expansions, so two conditions in two expansions could end up being very similar, or perhaps playing off one another in strange ways.
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#31 aniedrig

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:41 PM

So what I am getting from all of your replies thus far is that at least most of you share my wish that expansions should interlock a little bit more and that no one wants a bunch of conditions that can each be inflicted by only one monster type. Instead monsters in new expansions should be able to inflict already existing conditions (from the base-set as well as expansions).

 

Just a reminder, this thread was never meant to be ALL about conditions though. The green power dice are another issue as well as floor tiles and maybe some other components. I think Steve-O's idea to include all non-easily-expandable stuff in the base-set is very good, but unfortunately not applicable anymore.

 

What is still doable for FFG, though, is to release "Series of Expansions", which all interlock and depend on each other. They could actually even retroactively include expansions released thus far into these series. That is an idea many of you suggested and I think this is the most easily realizable one, too. I would like it very much, if they did something like that. This solution would also facilitate the feeling of interconnectedness between game mechanics, story and theme.

 

Thank you all for discussing this issue.



#32 ramblur

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:45 PM

I'd too like to see further support for the previously released conditions.
It seems natural. By doing this it cements that they are not a gimmick, but they are part of the game. Like the aforementioned green die and damage tokens, they reappear in different expansions because they are part of the system. A new lonely condition for each expansion is an arbitrary mindset, that might not necessarly be for the best. At the moment there are 7 conditions, awesome, the whole rainbow. The later expansions should cycle through these conditions again (even if sharing with another new one), by including monsters that can aflict them. This opens the strategic approach for the Overlord, as he or she can decide to do for fun a quest focusing in his favorite condition, Burn, for example. This is less fun if you are obligued to just use the same two monsters for that.

The "expansion for expansions" discourse could sound misleading and way more complicated than it is.
Its just some status cards and surge result in a future monster card. Why not? (rethorical)


Edited by ramblur, 20 December 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#33 rfisha

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:25 AM

As a further point, I feel like I don;t get the same choice of Lieutenants because I play with the Basic II Overlord cards.  Belthir for example has benefits for the base set of Overlord cards (Basic I).  It would be good if the Lieutenants that come with the corresponding expansion would utilize the components introduced in that set.  For example, Bol Goreth's plot deck could take advantage of infection and weakness, rather than poison and disease.  it would really compliment them and increase the longevity of the expansions we purchased.


Edited by rfisha, 20 December 2013 - 06:33 AM.


#34 rugal

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:41 AM

For Lieutenant, for Ariad, for example, I think FFG made a mistake.

 

They should do a big box with the two figures in one, only one deck with a transformation system of Ariad, and add green dices. This wouldn't have made the prices bigger, and more usefull, and in one way, expanding expansions.

 

But I do hope one day they will do an expansion to expand expansion.

Even if it's only a book with maps

 

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#35 BentoSan

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:06 AM

Definitely seems like they are catering to the casual player as opposed to those manic few of us who must own everything :P

 

Going by the reasoning of lieutenants only using mechanics from the base game its also obvious that none of the cards will utilise green dice. Thats a shame because they could make for a few cool plot cards potentially.


Edited by BentoSan, 20 December 2013 - 09:07 AM.


#36 griton

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 10:10 AM

The big thing to keep in mind with the Lieutenant packs is that they are actually meant to be used outside of the primary expansion they came with. There are specifically restrictions on using the same Lieutenant in the campaign they are primarily featured in. (Granted, this only applies to a few lieutenants, and not all of them.)

 

The closest I could see them doing would be to provide options. E.g. Valyndra's agent could have a "(surge): Burn or +1 (heart)" entry so that a choice could be made.

 

Also keep in mind that Bol'Goreth has nothing to do with Infection tokens besides being included with the expansion that also includes the Infector Overlord Deck, so it wouldn't make sense for the Agent to get Infector abilities when even the lieutenant doesn't.



#37 BentoSan

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:10 PM

E.g. Valyndra's agent could have a "(surge): Burn or +1 (heart)" entry so that a choice could be made.

Not such a bad idea really, would cause balance issues for those who don't have the expansion to apply burn with though. In order to get the most out of the lieutenant they would also need to own the expansion pack, still a pretty big ask on people who do not have the expansion though to get them to buy it.


Edited by BentoSan, 20 December 2013 - 12:11 PM.


#38 Kunzite

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:52 PM

So, they make more green dice, right? Most of that is meant to help the heroes out (seeing, as for now, very few monsters can use green or green adds damage through surges, but they themselves hold little damage, so those monsters normally do very little unless they have swarm and get it often. There are no outstanding items, unless they are relics, that give monsters a green dice like items and abilities do for heroes). in LT packs that are meant to encourage conditions, why not print the extra condition cards? It can't be too expensive. No more then a green dice.

 

I do like the idea of Advanced D2. This idea of introducing commands that say "x monster groups also get Surge: x condition" Like cursed monster group getting cursed condition as something they can do but only on maps that calls for cursed monsters. Think that is too easy, make it two surges since it's not their natural ability. I am ok with this.

 

Or having quests that use tiles only used once in that one quest from that one small expansion. Like, please. There are some really awesome tiles in Trollfens only used once or twice. That makes me a sad kitten. And I KNOW I can make my own quests from the vault, but I face the fact that I am not that creative. Sorry guys. My talent lays only in my paint brush.


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#39 rfisha

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:45 AM

The big thing to keep in mind with the Lieutenant packs is that they are actually meant to be used outside of the primary expansion they came with. There are specifically restrictions on using the same Lieutenant in the campaign they are primarily featured in. (Granted, this only applies to a few lieutenants, and not all of them.)

 

The closest I could see them doing would be to provide options. E.g. Valyndra's agent could have a "(surge): Burn or +1 (heart)" entry so that a choice could be made.

 

Also keep in mind that Bol'Goreth has nothing to do with Infection tokens besides being included with the expansion that also includes the Infector Overlord Deck, so it wouldn't make sense for the Agent to get Infector abilities when even the lieutenant doesn't.

 

I understand your point, but I was more referring to the actual plot decks than the agents themselves.  Other lieutenants (Belthir for example) provide extra buffs to Overlord cards in the base set, which provides more reasoning for selecting Overlord cards in the core set (Basic vs Basic II).  I like to play basic II, so I know I will never have any Lieutenants work with my deck to add that extra level of strategy and fun, so I reduce my selection of lieutenants or change my Overlord deck choice.

It would be nice to keep the theme's for the Lieutenants in line with the expansions - ie BolGoreth have some nice Infector related Plot cards and Ariad work with the Basic II deck, for example.   Understood you cannot use them in the quest for that expansion, but the like the Overlord cards, monsters, items etc it is beneficial (and more importantly a lot more fun!) to have them available in other quests, so the feel part of the main game.



#40 Steve-O

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:33 AM

If people don't like the idea of Valyndra without Burn, I imagine it would be a fairly simple house rule to say you always use the LT cards even when summoning them as Agents.  If nothing else on the card is different aside from special abilities, I don't see how that would affect balance.






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