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The Stalker and what works first


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#1 The9ofSpades

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:13 AM

So question in regards to the Stalker class in the Trollfens expansion. First the Stalkers base card, Set Trap, says "if a monster enters a space adjacent to a trap token discard that trap token from the map and the monster suffers 1 (damage)". Simple enough, however, when combined with the Stalker card Ambush, some questions were raised. Ambush reads "Exhaust this card when a monster enters an empty space within 3 spaces of a trap token to immediately perform an attack targeting that monster".

The question that arose is that if a monster is both moving adjacent to a trap token, and the stalker is activating ambush, is the token discarded before Ambush can be activated, or does the monster get attacked and then if he is not defeated the trap token is discarded and he suffers an additional damage. If the monster is defeated during the attack, does the trap token still get discarded?

Thanks

Edited by The9ofSpades, 04 December 2013 - 11:14 AM.


#2 No Hero

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:20 AM

I'd say as soon as the monster enters that space, both conditions trigger, so the trap will be discarded regardless. Even if you could resolve effects in the order you choose (but you can't because it's the OL's turn, and simultaneous/simultaneously triggering effects are solved in an order of the player taking their turn's choice), the monster being defeated by Ambush wouldn't change the fact that a monster entered an adjacent space, so the trap would get discarded even if there was no figure to suffer the damage.



#3 Husker949

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:00 PM

I agree with No Hero, the timing would definitely be determined by the OL in this case. The thing to keep in mind would be that if the OL chooses to discard the trap first, then there is an invalid condition for the Ambush ability to trigger. In this case, Ambush would not be able to be exhausted and would allow you to use it for another trap.



#4 The9ofSpades

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:02 PM

If effects trigger in the order determined by the player who's turn it is, could the OL say that Set Trap triggers, and since there is no trap token, ambush cannot trigger?

#5 Unclechawie

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:52 PM

Straight from the rules document:

 

Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players

wish to use an ability with the same triggering

condition. In these situations, the current player (the

player who is currently taking his turn) decides the

order in which the abilities are resolved.

 

The OL dosen't decide in which order they trigger, but in which order they resolve, but for there to be problem to begin with, the player would have had to declare his intent to use Ambush.  If that is the case, the OL gets to decide whether or not he wants to allow Set Trap or Ambush to resolve first.  Either way both resolve.  Hope this helps.



#6 No Hero

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:25 PM

Ah, but wait, I didn't get this: Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. So maybe if it's only one player controlling two abilities, it's intended that they still chooses how to resolve them even if itn's not their turn? In any case I still say they both trigger



#7 aniedrig

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:25 AM

i have another question concerning "ambush". we were wondering WHO makes the attack, when the trap triggers. the trap token itself (so to say) or the hero?

 

this is important, because we were uncertain about, whether the trap triggers even if the hero figure is somewhere else on the map (neither within range nor LOS). the text says "Exhaust this card when a monster enters an empty space within 3 spaces of a trap token to immediately perform an attack targeting that monster". we played it that the hero may perform an attack, but if he cannot (because he is not within range or LOS), well then he cannot. BUT logically, since it is a trap, the trap may trigger, no matter where the hero currently is, attacking independently from the hero, simply using the heroes current attack dice.

 

what do you think, how this ability should be understood?

is your hero allowed to perform an attack, if he is able to (if within range and LOS) or will the trap attack independently?


Edited by aniedrig, 05 December 2013 - 07:09 AM.


#8 Husker949

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:29 AM

Because it is a hero ability, the hero is the one making the attack against the target. I haven't really looked at the Stalker deck, but I do believe that it has some basic ranged weapons; or moreover, uses a melee and ranged weapon simultaneously.



#9 No Hero

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:38 AM

When hero skills and abilities are meant to measure distance and range from another space, or to ignore them, they go out of their way to state so. Since nothing in Ambush states otherwise, I'd say it's the hero making the attack, from their space and measuring range as normal. The ability is still good if you are good at placing traps though.



#10 aniedrig

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:06 AM

ok, thank you. i thought so as well. we played that way.

 

anyway, i just thought it is a possibility, since it is a trap after all. it is not really conceivable that the trap triggers, but the hero attacks  :huh: if the hero is the one attacking, this ability feels more like a hero stance.

 

however, you are right. the ability is still strong enough, if the hero is the one attacking.


Edited by aniedrig, 05 December 2013 - 07:08 AM.


#11 Husker949

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:08 AM

I have an email sent to FFG for a clarification on this, so we should have an official answer in the next few days.



#12 Kunzite

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:53 AM

I think Husker is right. One should as FFGs. We have had this conflict already more then once. As it is my turn (the OL) I get to decide what happens first. If the trap goes off first, then there is no trap for the ambush to trigger. Frustrating for the heroes, yes, but is how the OL can get around this. I have saved many hybrid sentinels at the sacrifice of my fire imps in this regard. This also might be my Magic background getting in the way again. 

 

But it should be asked. 


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#13 Unclechawie

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

I think Husker is right. One should as FFGs. We have had this conflict already more then once. As it is my turn (the OL) I get to decide what happens first. If the trap goes off first, then there is no trap for the ambush to trigger. Frustrating for the heroes, yes, but is how the OL can get around this. I have saved many hybrid sentinels at the sacrifice of my fire imps in this regard. This also might be my Magic background getting in the way again. 

 

But it should be asked. 

 

Again, not sure why this is an issue.  Both trigger as the triggering condition is moving within a certain range of the trap token.  The OL simply gets to decide which resolves first, not whether it actually triggers.

 

And as No Hero already stated, the skills cards that state to make an attack default to the hero unless otherwise specified, such as.  Thus he will have to have line of sight and be able to meet range or he would be wasting the exhaustion of the card.



#14 Unclechawie

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:31 AM

ok, thank you. i thought so as well. we played that way.

 

anyway, i just thought it is a possibility, since it is a trap after all. it is not really conceivable that the trap triggers, but the hero attacks  :huh: if the hero is the one attacking, this ability feels more like a hero stance.

 

however, you are right. the ability is still strong enough, if the hero is the one attacking.

 

Think of the trap token as the bait.  You lure them in with the trap token and then ambush them while they are busy looking at the trap token if the OL decides to resolve the attack first or while they are disoriented from the blast if the OL decides to blow up the trap token first. 



#15 griton

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:36 AM

Sounds like a great question for FFG's Rules Questions (link at the bottom of the page). I'd say that since they both resolve from the same player, the hero can choose the order to execute them and if they happen or not. It's also possible that the hero may only choose one, but I can't remember anywhere in the rules stating why that'd be the case.



#16 No Hero

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:28 PM

I reiterate, it seems like it's the Stalker player that decides the order they trigger in. The rules state that the player who's taking turn breaks conflict when two or more players are involved - if both abilities are controlled by hte Stalker player I think they should decide, RAW

I also think both abilities trigger so whatever

hmmm... timing has rarely been a problem in my games, but maybe this merits clarification too



#17 Light Bright

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:27 PM

I wish people on Battlelore thread would talk more at least you guys do.

#18 Husker949

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:58 AM

Ok I got the response from Justin:

 

Q)When using a Stalker's Ambush ability at the same time as a monster moves adjacent to a trap, would both abilities trigger or would the OL be able to choose which to activate first (I.E. the trap), and making Ambush invalid?

 

A)If this happened, Ambush would still trigger. The timing conflict will merely reflect which will happen first. The trigger, a monster entering a space adjacent to (or within 3 spaces of) a trap token has still been fulfilled for both.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games


#19 Steve-O

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 07:46 PM

I wish people on Battlelore thread would talk more at least you guys do.

 

I'm sure it will pick up after the game is actually released.



#20 Kirgat

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:46 AM

I might be wrong but I can't find the problem here since Ambush states "when a monster enters an empty space within 3 spaces of a trap token". At the time a monster is within this range, you would interrupt its action and perform Ambush. Afterwards, if the monster (not defeated) continues to move and enters an empty space adjacent a trap, you would resolve the basic ability.

Since Ambush does not say you may exhaust this card, I believe you cannot decide when to activate it, so it must be resolved when possible. Correct me if I'm wrong please. ;) 






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