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Questions on Blinding Speed in OL Basic 2 Deck


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#1 Cursain

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:17 AM

1.  When I use "Blinding Speed", and gain movement for a monster, do I need to commit a "Move" action to utilize the movement points earned?  Let's say for example, I have a zombie 1 space from a closed door that I would like to go through and then close the door.  I want to perform an "Open Action" and a "Close Action" for its activation.  Can I use one of the "Blinding Speed" movement points to move next to the door, then use its first action to "Open Door", use the last "Blinding Speed" movement point go move past the door, and then use my second action to "Close Door"?

 

2.  When do I need to use the movement points?  Let's say I earn four movement points after a warrior bombs both stat tests; can I spend two of the "Blinding Speed" points, then do a "Move" action to get on the other side of a hero in a hallway, so I can interrupt with an "Attack" action, spend the reminding movement points earned from the "Move" action, and then burn the remainder of the "Blinding Speed" points?
 

3.  How does "Blinding Speed" work with large monster expansion?  Can they expand at all when using any of the movement points from "Blinding Speed"?



#2 No Hero

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:48 AM

1 and 2 . You don't need to take any Move action.  You can spend movement points any time during your turn, you are not forced to spend them all before going on with your activation. Think of them as a pool you can draw from whenever during your activation.  Of course you have to finish activating a monster before passing on to the next.

 

3 . This is trickier. Rules and clarifications state that you can't interrupt a monster's Move action for the sole purpose of expanding - you have to interrupt it to do something, anything, including taking another Move action. But in regards to movement points, something like that was never stated... so maybe you can spend them one at a time expanding every time! Descent can be silly like that at times.



#3 PlainWhiteBread

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:03 PM

We've played it like this: Blinding Speed adds movement points to a monster's move action; ie. a 4 move monster activating it would get 6 Move Points in their move action, versus Basic 1's Dash adding a third action (a Move action) to that monster's activation.

We're playing a new campaign now, where this card would give the monster straight movement points outside of an action; ie. now it has two free movement points in addition to its move and attack actions. We decided to use this because the Trident from the Trollfens expansion and Master Thorn's Hero ability both say "Surge, gain two movement points": If someone using the Trident or Master Thorn had already moved and then attacked, what would be the purpose of that surge ability if they couldn't use the movement points after attacking?

In any case, this decision benefits both parties; Heroes have items like the Dead Man's Compass and the Elven Boots to give them 'free movement' points -- spent outside of committing to movement actions -- and the OL has cards like Belthir's Dual Training plot card or Basic 2's Blinding Speed to give monsters the same benefit.



#4 Steve-O

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 07:39 AM

I think the new rules surrounding "move action" vs "movement" is an area that really got botched in second edition. The more discussions like this one I see, the more I am convinced of that.

In D1E, figures just had a pool of MPs to use throughout their turn and that was that. A move action simply dumped [Speed] MPs into the pool. Whatever wasn't used was lost at the end of the figure's turn/activation.

We've been playing with a house rule to make movement work like that again for a little while now. Anything that triggers "during a Move Action" is treated as triggering "on entering an empty space" instead, basically.

Large monster movement COULD be horribly broken by this house rule - an issue we're still working on. Since I'm almost always the OL, I've just been "playing nice" and not going crazy with the potential shrink/expand abuses this house rule presents, but I'm trying to brainstorm a better way of integrating large monster movement.
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#5 Cursain

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 10:05 AM

Steve-O, you submitted your home-made rules concerning movement but I can't track down the post.  Can you add them to this topic for me review?  I'm thinking about submitted them to my gaming group so we're all on the same page.

 

Cursain



#6 No Hero

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

Steve-O, try making a ruling like this: movement points can only be spent in two "groups" before AND after you take any other action, or in better words, you can voluntarily interrupt your monster's movement only once per turn. For example, if you play a Blinding Speed and you don't need to take a move action, you can spend all your points before, after or before and after you take your two actions - you can't, say, move one space, expand, open a door, move one space, expand, attack, move one space, expand.

Personally I tend to play large monsters according to sanity as well. For example I don't interrupt a move action to take another move action, I just move them of their entire movement allowance together - even if I play a Dash.

The biggest issue remains hero abilities that interrupt your monster's movement. A Wildlander careless with Nimble can potentially give you a great deal of movement... or deny your monster movement entirely by denying you the posisbility of expanding "forward".



#7 Steve-O

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 09:31 PM

Steve-O, try making a ruling like this: movement points can only be spent in two "groups" before AND after you take any other action.


That's certainly one option, well worth considering.

The train of thought I've been following of late is to say the monster must "expand" back to the same position relative to it's "movement space" as it originally had before it began moving. It requires the OL to remember the original orientation of the monster, but only for the duration of the movement.

Also, a large monster can "pivot" around its "movement space" for 1 MP. (1 MP regardless of how far it pivots.) There would still be some abuses here, but I don't see how it could be any worse than the current "shrink/expand" shenanigans allowed for by RAW.

I think this neatly resolves any concerns about "expanding every space," albiet at the expense of basically disallowing ALL "shrink/expand" extra movement. I am aware that some people hold this extra movement to be intended, even necessary to game balance. I've never been that big on using "shrink/expand" extra movement anyway, so this doesn't bother me too much, personally.

 

Steve-O, you submitted your home-made rules concerning movement but I can't track down the post.  Can you add them to this topic for me review?  I'm thinking about submitted them to my gaming group so we're all on the same page.


Sure:
1) MPs are MPs, regardless of where they came from. Any ability that grants a figure the ability to "move" now grants MP in the defined amount. MPs go into a single "pool" from which they are spent over the duration of the figure's turn. Anything not spent is lost when the turn/activation ends.

2) A "Move Action" is an instant effect that grants MP equal to Speed. It is over as soon as it is declared. The rules for interrupting a Move Action are no longer required.

3) Some abilities require their movement to be performed "immediately" as part of a special action. These MPs must all be spent over the course of resolving this special action. Any leftover MPs are lost. Classic examples of this caveat include "movement with benefits" (ie: Silhouette) or "movement during another player's turn" (ie: Knight's "Stalwart")

4) Any effect that triggers "during a Move Action" is now considered to trigger when the figure "enters a space" via spending MP. Doesn't matter where the MP came from.

5) Any effect that causes a Move Action to "immediately end" is now considered to drain the figure's unspent MP pool to zero. The figure can acquire new MPs to continue moving, if possible. Used in the middle of a "spend immediately" ability (see rule 3) this drains all MP; those granted by the special ability as well as any unspent general MPs the figure hadn't used yet.  The acting figure can still finish resolving his action from the space he was stopped in.

    (ie: An ability which allows a hero to move and attack during the OL's turn may get cut short before the hero reaches the space he intended to attack from, but he may still make the attack from the space where he was stopped, if he has a legal target.)

6) Immobilize prevents the expenditure of MP. Figures can still gain MPs from various abilities if they want, but they can't spend them and thus cannot move. Immobilize still reduces the figure's MP pool to zero when played, per the FAQ.

7) Abilities that instruct the player to remove his figure from the map and later replace it do not count as movement. These abilities can still be used while Immobilized, as per RAW.



#8 Cursain

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 04:55 PM

Hello my fellow Descent 2 Overlords. I posed the three questions to Justin, and added another two.  Below my six questions are his responses:

 

1. When I use "Blinding Speed", and gain movement for a monster, do I need to commit a "Move" action to utilize the movement points earned? Let's say for example, I have a zombie 1 space from a closed door that I would like to go through and then close the door. I want to perform an "Open Action" and a "Close Action" for its activation. Can I use one of the "Blinding Speed" movement points to move next to the door, then use its first action to "Open Door", use the last "Blinding Speed" movement point go move past the door, and then use my second action to "Close Door"?

2. When do I need to use the movement points? Let's say I earn four movement points after a warrior bombs both stat tests; can I spend two of the "Blinding Speed" points, then do a "Move" action to get on the other side of a hero in a hallway, so I can interrupt with an "Attack" action, spend the reminding movement points earned from the "Move" action, and then burn the remainder of the "Blinding Speed" points?

3. How does "Blinding Speed" work with large monster expansion? Can they expand at all when using any of the movement points from "Blinding Speed"?

 

4. If it does require a "Move" action to use the movement points granted by "Blinding Speed"; then does the same restriction apply to the new Shop I item named "Trident" for the heroes? If they can move the 2 spaces using the surge without investing in a "Move" action, may I ask what the design reason is for that decision and why heroes seem to have an advantage?

5. The movement rules seem to generate the most confusion and arguments during gaming. Has FFG considered re-writing the move rules so all movement points are dumped into a "movement point pool" which characters can pull from to move spaces?

Unfortunately, every gaming session we've played (I'm the OL) the heroes have complained about expanding, and since switching over to Basic 2, it's gotten worse.

6. The "Punisher" series OL card named "No Rest for the Wicked" has me concerned about more arguing, as I intend to invest an experience or two to use it later in the campaign. I'm concerned about how it works for 2 sq, 4 sq, or 6 sq monsters; how does the expanding feature work for me?

 

====================================================

 

Hey Wade,

 

1) No, Blinding Speed does not require the monster to have performed a move action for the movement points to be spent.

 

2) The movement points that are gained in this may be spent before, in between, or after the monster's 2 actions.

 

3) The monster may still expand by interrupting to perform an action, or by ending its movement.

 

4) Not applicable!

 

5) It tends to go back and forth. It would entail a pretty large rewrite of the rules, and for the most part there hasn't been any kind of huge problem, other than some varied confusion, in relation to movement.

 

6) If "No Rest for the Wicked" is in effect, if the hero chooses to spend the movement point, the overlord chooses a monster. Similar to other "move" abilities, if it's a large monster, the overlord will shrink, move, and expand that monster just like he would for a move action. Yes, this can create a significant advantage in using 3x2 monster, like shadow dragons, as they effectively receive 3 "movement."

 

 

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com


Edited by Cursain, 03 December 2013 - 09:18 PM.

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#9 Kunzite

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:10 PM

# Six there is packed. For a long time we have not played with expand rules (100% a house rule thing0. Recently they have seen me abuse my own rule. With that in mind and allot of time playing, we have decided to go back to the expand rule in which I greatly use for my advantage. Not that the heroes don't expect it, it has been a little sore for them sometimes. There was one time my giant had three movement and because of a Frenzy and the downing of the first target, I had him expand in my advantage each movement (since it was intruded twice by two attacks). Dirty, but it gets a dirty job done. This has to be the most abuse-able rule in the OL's arsenal.

 

I think it would be awesome if FF was able to make a 2x2 hero so the heroes could use and abuse this rule as well.


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#10 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:16 AM

# Six there is packed. For a long time we have not played with expand rules (100% a house rule thing0. Recently they have seen me abuse my own rule. With that in mind and allot of time playing, we have decided to go back to the expand rule in which I greatly use for my advantage. Not that the heroes don't expect it, it has been a little sore for them sometimes. There was one time my giant had three movement and because of a Frenzy and the downing of the first target, I had him expand in my advantage each movement (since it was intruded twice by two attacks). Dirty, but it gets a dirty job done. This has to be the most abuse-able rule in the OL's arsenal.

I think it would be awesome if FF was able to make a 2x2 hero so the heroes could use and abuse this rule as well.

I love the large monster expand rule. 3 movement with expand means that a large monster moves fast. I know when you see something with 3 movement it seems like it should be slow but in actuality a large monster with movement of 3 is a fast monster and should be because there big and powerful (or big and annoying). Thier weakness is sometimes where they can expand but that's where thinking ahead comes in with them (so it balances out quite well). Heroes can strategically place themselves in a way to minimize where that large monster can go and sometimes controlling where it can go.

Think of it like this a Shadow Dragon has wings and should be fast and maneuverable(but can't fly,I wish they could). A giant has very long strong legs and should be fast and maneuverable same with 4 leg critters.

I absolutely love your large hero expand rule. That would be awesome! A danger senceing scout with that ability would be so cool. Hey thier known for being fast why not (most scouts).

Edited by Silverhelm, 04 December 2013 - 09:48 AM.


#11 griton

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:22 AM

I think it would be awesome if FF was able to make a 2x2 hero so the heroes could use and abuse this rule as well.

 

The problem with a 2x2 hero (or even a 1x2 hero) is that so many quests are based around being able to set up heroes in a block of 4. If anything, I could maybe see having a 1x2 hero that can't be used in a 4-hero game.



#12 No Hero

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:51 AM

I think any house rule regarding shrinking/expanding large monsters shoudl take into consideration that such monsters have low movement rates, probably an artifice to address that same situation. In that case, I'd probably bump up all large monsters' movement rates by 1 (Elementals and Barghest are supposed to be that fast, I think) and maybe movement for the huge monsters (dragons) by 2

 

Also: those rules serve to make movement through blockades and corridors easier for monsters. Be careful to not make some quests trivially easy (or large monsters useless as open groups) by fiddling too much with movement.


Edited by No Hero, 04 December 2013 - 10:53 AM.

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#13 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:42 AM

I think it would be awesome if FF was able to make a 2x2 hero so the heroes could use and abuse this rule as well.

 
The problem with a 2x2 hero (or even a 1x2 hero) is that so many quests are based around being able to set up heroes in a block of 4. If anything, I could maybe see having a 1x2 hero that can't be used in a 4-hero game.

Yea that's true I can see some problems with that too. Maybe in a future expansion with a bigger starting tile. But then it would be limited to that campaign.

#14 Cursain

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:12 PM

# Six there is packed. For a long time we have not played with expand rules (100% a house rule thing0. Recently they have seen me abuse my own rule. With that in mind and allot of time playing, we have decided to go back to the expand rule in which I greatly use for my advantage. Not that the heroes don't expect it, it has been a little sore for them sometimes. There was one time my giant had three movement and because of a Frenzy and the downing of the first target, I had him expand in my advantage each movement (since it was intruded twice by two attacks). Dirty, but it gets a dirty job done. This has to be the most abuse-able rule in the OL's arsenal.

 

I think it would be awesome if FF was able to make a 2x2 hero so the heroes could use and abuse this rule as well.

 

After dealing with my heroes winning The Masquerade Ball on Encounter 2 after I won Encounter 1......IN TWO hero TURNS!!!!; I don't feel sorry for them at all.  Their fatigue moving abilities are just insane.  Unless I can use and abuse these expanding rules soon, I won't have a chance.

 

Next quest, whether I win or lose, I'm getting Blood Frenzy with my forth OL experience point, and then we'll be playing "The Shadow Vault" since they've already won the 1st two Act 1 quests.

 

I'm taking "No Rest for the Wicked" after The Shadow Vault, and then it's game on.

 

Fatigue moving is such an advantage for the heroes.  OL needs something to deal with it, and Justin has paved the way for me.



#15 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:18 PM

# Six there is packed. For a long time we have not played with expand rules (100% a house rule thing0. Recently they have seen me abuse my own rule. With that in mind and allot of time playing, we have decided to go back to the expand rule in which I greatly use for my advantage. Not that the heroes don't expect it, it has been a little sore for them sometimes. There was one time my giant had three movement and because of a Frenzy and the downing of the first target, I had him expand in my advantage each movement (since it was intruded twice by two attacks). Dirty, but it gets a dirty job done. This has to be the most abuse-able rule in the OL's arsenal.

I think it would be awesome if FF was able to make a 2x2 hero so the heroes could use and abuse this rule as well.


After dealing with my heroes winning The Masquerade Ball on Encounter 2 after I won Encounter 1......IN TWO hero TURNS!!!!; I don't feel sorry for them at all. Their fatigue moving abilities are just insane. Unless I can use and abuse these expanding rules soon, I won't have a chance.

Next quest, whether I win or lose, I'm getting Blood Frenzy with my forth OL experience point, and then we'll be playing "The Shadow Vault" since they've already won the 1st two Act 1 quests.

I'm taking "No Rest for the Wicked" after The Shadow Vault, and then it's game on.

Fatigue moving is such an advantage for the heroes. OL needs something to deal with it, and Justin has paved the way for me.
Yea I love "No Rest for the Wicked" it's a very sweet card. Easliy one of my favorites. I get a lot of "o f@&k not that card" moments with it.

Edited by Silverhelm, 04 December 2013 - 12:21 PM.


#16 Cursain

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:19 PM

Lindel as a Thief, with Elven Boots, Venom Dagger, and Blowpipe is just insane.  Lady Eliza had no chance, especially after getting poisoned by Lindel with the Sneaky skill.  He tests skills on two grey dice and has a 3 in all stats.  I had one turn, after she had taken five wounds and was poisoned, to move five, and get through the door.  Lindel got through the door so quick and finished her off with the Venom Dagger so easy since he can use his Heroic to choose the dice roll (chose blue as 2heart, and surge).


Edited by Cursain, 04 December 2013 - 12:20 PM.


#17 Cursain

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:38 PM

My end campaign deck is going to look, at minimum, like this:

 

2 Blood Rage

1 Blood Frenzy

1 OR 2 No Rest for the Wicked

1 OR 0 Trading Pains

1 Price of Prevention

 

My card draw will quickly get out of hand for the heroes once I get Blood Frenzy with Price of Prevention rocking on wounded heroes.  Replacing the Basic 2 deck of six garbage cards should make it very lethal especially when I have drawn most of my deck, and continue playing Blood Frenzy once or twice a round.

 

Also, I'm running the Splig plot deck. 

 

-Cursain


Edited by Cursain, 04 December 2013 - 12:41 PM.


#18 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:43 PM

Lindel as a Thief, with Elven Boots, Venom Dagger, and Blowpipe is just insane. Lady Eliza had no chance, especially after getting poisoned by Lindel with the Sneaky skill. He tests skills on two grey dice and has a 3 in all stats. I had one turn, after she had taken five wounds and was poisoned, to move five, and get through the door. Lindel got through the door so quick and finished her off with the Venom Dagger so easy since he can use his Heroic to choose the dice roll (chose blue as 2heart, and surge).

Lol ouch! Yea it's good your getting NRftW that should help.
@no hero
I agree with you but I wouldn't go beyond a movement of 4 I think 4 might be just right. Hero players already hate the expand rule as it is. My group is fine with it and it makes since to them, but seems to be a lot of players who aren't. I can totally understand a SD leaping over my head (or maneuvering) and landing behind me (me as in a hero).

Edited by Silverhelm, 04 December 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#19 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:46 PM

My end campaign deck is going to look, at minimum, like this:

2 Blood Rage
1 Blood Frenzy
1 OR 2 No Rest for the Wicked
1 OR 0 Trading Pains
1 Price of Prevention

My card draw will quickly get out of hand for the heroes once I get Blood Frenzy with Price of Prevention rocking on wounded heroes. Replacing the Basic 2 deck of six garbage cards should make it very lethal especially when I have drawn most of my deck, and continue playing Blood Frenzy once or twice a round.

Also, I'm running the Splig plot deck.

-Cursain

O man go two NRftW! That way you will be sure to get it more often. I don't own any plot decks yet but I will this month getting Bol'gareth and Valyndra.

Edited by Silverhelm, 04 December 2013 - 01:05 PM.


#20 Kunzite

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:33 PM

Curain: owch! I have never hear of the heroes winning that quest till now. I feel for you, man. That's hard stuff.

My heroes are playing with the expand rules really well. Brigg, our guy that likes lots of stuff on the field (therefore loves geomancer) is learning quickly on how the dictate where my big and uglies go at any time. It only took one or two times of me slipping a large monster in a place he did not think of for him to then work around it. It's a whole new way of thinking when it comes to the expand rule.
I really do like that my large monsters can now move faster. I have grown very fond of my small monsters as of late though for the shear fact that it takes more hero actions to despose of them then bigs and uglies. Also I get more hits in which normally means more damage. Or infection tokens for out brake. Oh. That card is powerful.
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