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Space marines and the Machine Cult


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#21 pearldrum1

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:00 AM

Wait, why do you hate the Dreadknights?

 

In my mind they are one of the most badass creations in the universe!



#22 Routa-maa

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:56 AM

I think this has a lot to do with writer of the Codex.

 

Matt Ward and his more than bad (awful, horrible, sick, etc etc) skill of writing fluff.

 

Here's just few examples:

 

Grey Knights making body paint from Sisters of Battle so they could be extra "warded" against Corruption

Blood Angels and Necrons fighting each other, but joining forces when attacked by Tyranids and after the won battle fist bumb and go separate ways.

Making deal with Xzibit to make power armour in power armour (ie Centurion and Dreadknight.)

Raising Ultrasmurfs (ie Ultramarines) over every other Space Marine Chapter

 

This list could go on and on.


Edited by Routa-maa, 04 December 2013 - 04:58 AM.

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#23 Lynata

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:28 PM

Wait, why do you hate the Dreadknights?

In my mind they are one of the most badass creations in the universe!

 

Well ... of course it comes down to a matter of taste, but a small Marine carried inside a bigger Marine - I'm sorry, but aside from all the "yo dawg" jokes it just makes me think of those baby carriages where you can carry your toddler in front of your belly.  :P

 

The new Centurions look much more fitting, although their original concept art was even cooler.

But a part of me also still thinks that "new toys" are not necessary when the armoury of a faction has been fairly established for more than a decade, so I'm always slightly biased against any new stuff by default, just "because it's new". So take my judgment with a grain of salt.

 

Oh well, at least the Dreadknight has spawned countless funny images on the webs that can amuse me.

 

Grey Knights making body paint from Sisters of Battle so they could be extra "warded" against Corruption

 

Ironically, even as a SoB fan, I have no problem at all with this bit.

"The 41st millennium is grim and dark, deal with it"  :lol:

 

200px-Sister_Brofist.png


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#24 pearldrum1

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:20 PM

I think this has a lot to do with writer of the Codex.

 

Matt Ward and his more than bad (awful, horrible, sick, etc etc) skill of writing fluff.

 

Here's just few examples:

 

Grey Knights making body paint from Sisters of Battle so they could be extra "warded" against Corruption

Blood Angels and Necrons fighting each other, but joining forces when attacked by Tyranids and after the won battle fist bumb and go separate ways.

Making deal with Xzibit to make power armour in power armour (ie Centurion and Dreadknight.)

Raising Ultrasmurfs (ie Ultramarines) over every other Space Marine Chapter

 

This list could go on and on.

 

 

:o

 

I understood all of that except the Xzibit part. I might be reading it too literally. This is a JOKE right? As in, he is pimping out the Power Armor... and not... actually... hiring xzib... OK. I had to talk that one out. Joke. I will accept no other response.



#25 pearldrum1

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:21 PM

 

Wait, why do you hate the Dreadknights?

In my mind they are one of the most badass creations in the universe!

 

Well ... of course it comes down to a matter of taste, but a small Marine carried inside a bigger Marine - I'm sorry, but aside from all the "yo dawg" jokes it just makes me think of those baby carriages where you can carry your toddler in front of your belly.  :P

 

The new Centurions look much more fitting, although their original concept art was even cooler.

But a part of me also still thinks that "new toys" are not necessary when the armoury of a faction has been fairly established for more than a decade, so I'm always slightly biased against any new stuff by default, just "because it's new". So take my judgment with a grain of salt.

 

Oh well, at least the Dreadknight has spawned countless funny images on the webs that can amuse me.

 

Grey Knights making body paint from Sisters of Battle so they could be extra "warded" against Corruption

 

Ironically, even as a SoB fan, I have no problem at all with this bit.

"The 41st millennium is grim and dark, deal with it"  :lol:

 

200px-Sister_Brofist.png

 

 

Do you have any pics of the original Centurion design?

 

And BA and Necs fist bumping and rolling out without another shot fired. WHAT?? WHAT?!



#26 Lynata

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:22 PM

Do you have any pics of the original Centurion design?

 

*rummages*

 

Just some very shaky pictures from a Games Day in 2004 - first ideas for something that in the end never surfaced. The Centurion of today is much bulkier, but I think you can see how they could be influenced by the older designs:

 

[ #1 ]

[ #2 ]

[ #3 ]

 

I guess I like the Centurion well enough, though I would have fluffed it differently (basically a "Terminator -1"; an awkward hybrid between PA and TDA meant to counter the Imperium's loss of knowledge in regards to Termie production).

 

And BA and Necs fist bumping and rolling out without another shot fired. WHAT?? WHAT?!

 

As much as this is internet hyperbole, I admit I did not find that very fitting either. I could see a temporary alliance between those forces - but it would only be 40k if each side attempts to wipe the other out after they're done with the common enemy.  :lol:


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#27 Routa-maa

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:09 PM

Well it is the Interwebs bad thing that you can find anything and almost everthing from it that has or has not anything to do with actual fluff/canon.

"cough" Like Female Rubricae Marines "cough"

300437-Blood%20Angels,%20Bro%20Fist,%20F

There is this picture.

 

137804659756.png

And then there are these pictures. I almost spilled my morning cereals when this popped into my screen and I'm pretty sure there is special place for people who make these in Equestria.

 

"I'm starting to think that I should propably burn my laptop"


Edited by Routa-maa, 04 December 2013 - 11:15 PM.

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#28 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:58 PM

I'm trying to better define the personality of my upcoming Salamanders Tactical Marine, a rather interesting question popped up (this guy is going to be interacting with quite a bit of xenotech aboard a RT vessel):

 

What do Space Marines in general think about the Machine Cult?

 

I know they look at the Emperor as more of a father figure than god, so I doubt they'd acknowledge the Omnissiah as a true god, but then how do they really view it?

 

Well machines obviously work, and Marines don't understand how, so they have a good reason for believing in Machine Spirits/the Omnissiah.

 

EDIT: The Necrons have indeed been completely and thoroughly reworked and have been extensively written up in this form in both Deathwatch and Black Crusade.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 07 December 2013 - 10:02 PM.


#29 LordBlades

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:12 PM

 

I'm trying to better define the personality of my upcoming Salamanders Tactical Marine, a rather interesting question popped up (this guy is going to be interacting with quite a bit of xenotech aboard a RT vessel):

 

What do Space Marines in general think about the Machine Cult?

 

I know they look at the Emperor as more of a father figure than god, so I doubt they'd acknowledge the Omnissiah as a true god, but then how do they really view it?

 

Well machines obviously work, and Marines don't understand how, so they have a good reason for believing in Machine Spirits/the Omnissiah.

 

EDIT: The Necrons have indeed been completely and thoroughly reworked and have been extensively written up in this form in both Deathwatch and Black Crusade.

 

 

 

On the one hand, assuming old chapters haven't purged their pre-Heresy history, a chapter like the Samamanders might still have records (or hell, even Dreadnoughts) dating that far back. And back then largely the same machines still seemed to work just fine without all the religious rites. For a chapter such technically-inclined as the Salamanders (they manufacture their own wargear, most of their members built/modified at least some of their own gear pieces themselves, I don't see that far-fetched for even the 'average guy' to know that there isn't that much truth behind the Machine-Cult.

 

On the other hand, I can totally see other chapters buying into it fully. Hell, IIRC the Sons of Medusa are the producst of a spilt within the Iron Hands based on some divergent doctrine within the Cult Mechanicus (that they can read the future in the Astronomican or something like that)


Edited by LordBlades, 08 December 2013 - 03:12 PM.


#30 pearldrum1

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:20 PM

Samamanders

 

 

I pictured a guy named 'Sam' and a girl named 'Amanda' in power armor.

 

BFF chapter 4 life.


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#31 Lynata

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:33 PM

Well, the Salamanders do own the oldest Rhino, if one were to go by GW fluff. Then again, the fact that they had it up and running for eight thousand years kinda hints at the vehicle having become more than a mere tool of war.

 

"Rhinos can be salvaged and are brought back to the forge to have each wound reverently repaired by skilled artificers, the battle scars worn with pride and their war-spirits honoured with the Litanies of Battle. As a result, many Rhinos have remained in service for thousands of years, becoming holy relics amongst the Chapters of Space Marines and other Imperial servants who rely on them. The oldest Rhino in existence belongs to the Salamanders, and is known as Nocturne's Hammer. The Salamanders tell that it carried their legendary Primarch, Vulkan, into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying cut through the gates of the Imperial fortress to attack the foe. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honour in the Chapter's reliquary on Prometheus, its armoured hide scarred by millennia of war."

- WD #269 excerpt

 

The Salamanders also select recruits based on their blacksmithing skills rather than focusing on what makes a Space Marine a better warrior, so it does seem they are not as practical-minded at least in that version of the background.

 

In FFG's RPGs, both agents of the Adeptus Mechanicus as well as the Adeptus Ministorum are capable of calling upon visible and undeniable proof that their respective gods exist and infuse them with power. It does beg the question of how the Astartes would only recognise one but deny the other.


Edited by Lynata, 08 December 2013 - 05:35 PM.

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#32 venkelos

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 10:38 AM

The powers come from her faith, not directly from the Emperor. They are being manifested because of the existential belief - and the quantity of it. As a result of the overflow of Emperor Worship in the metaphysical universe, it is becoming manifest in realspace.

 

 

So, I dont think she would lose her power. She would probably benefit from generating the power in the same way, albeit with a Chaotic overlord benefactor in place of the Imperial Cult.

I'd probably say she would, but only because, as I'm looking at it, it's her faith in the Emperor that gives her power. Whether the source is Him or her, it is the belief that manifests it, and if she stopped believing, power goes poof. Very few people are capable of understanding that power might come from them. It's sort of heretical to think, MIGHT be corruption, and on. So, if she stopped believing in the Emperor, she wouldn't believe in the power, and it would go poof. This is only my opinion, of course.

 

Oh, I wasnt aware of the changes. I dont keep up with the Necs. What happened?

Another opinion, they went to crap. If you know about Warhammer Fantasy, they finished their transmogrification into Tomb Kings in Space. Basically, they got personality, cowardice, backstabbiness, diplomacy, and a religion reboot.

 

K, the Necrons were mindless machines who implacably strode across the galaxy, killing everything. Now, we might believe that the software that connects them has finally reached a level of activity where it acts like people, rather than mindless automatons. This cyber-consciousness can think, laugh, cry, fear, and plot. Also, the C'Tans they once served now serve them. They killed their Gods, and split them up into peices, sort of like Khaine, and much like him, each piece can become a Nightbringer Shard, or a Deceiver Shard, and serves the Necropolis. It gets a bit more complicated here and there, but the Outer Reach is a good source if you are interested.

 

 

As an aside, I rather like the Dreadknights, mostly from the standpoint that they had to have something like this. There is no Grey Knight who wishes to become a Dreadnought; what is seen as an honor to others is a terrible sentence to the Knights. No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Choas, and none wish to be the first. Death is the ultimate release from this worry, knowing that they died pure, and will lay in repose with their fallen Brothers and Heroes. Being interred in a Dreadnought is a nightmare, literally thousands more possible years of service, of more chances to succumb to the Ruinous Powers, and of not getting to rest. However, each Dreadnought is also a potent weapons platform, and the Grey Knights fight things that make other Space Marines look like IG, so they can't shrug off the need for these weapons. Some will willingly become Dreadnoughts, of course, but it makes sense for the Knights to have a similar unit, but one that bears a still spry Grey Knight, who can still fight, and maybe die in service, and attain the reward of a peaceful rest.

 

Now, are they cheesy models? Well yes, possibly, but I mostly cared to justify their existence, not if they are good.

 

 

As for the Techmarines, much of what I've read says that, while they try to remain more Chapter than AdMech, their brothers will often look at them with suspicion, and treat them different. Of course, this might not happen, and it might just depend on Chapter (Iron Hands and Salamanders should LOVE their Techmarines, with the prior also being Chaplains, and the latter being so smithing-based, and Space Wolf Iron Priests are much more like their Brothers than like any Tech-Priest you'll ever see), but they were gone for a while, know weird things, believe some strange stuff, and so on.

 

Of course, I vote for team unity, and getting along, but this can be an interesting excuse for role-playing, and inter-character action.


Edited by venkelos, 21 December 2013 - 10:51 AM.

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#33 Kshatriya

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:29 PM

The best thing about newcrons is they're no longer mechanical tyranids in terms of personality. A game only needs one "locust-like mindlessly-slaying, non-negotiating" type of race.


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#34 pearldrum1

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 06:52 PM

At least there are pros and cons to the newcrons.



#35 Kshatriya

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:54 AM

I don't really see the cons in the RPG at any rate. The Outer Reach provides easy justification for discovered crons to be either mindless murderbots or acting under a big-personality murderbot. Good inclusion, that.



#36 pearldrum1

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:11 PM

Any limitations found in the setting are limitations of the GM. And thus, the necessity for this site is doubled. It really helps us (especially un-seasons GMs like myself) get through any hiccups or road-blocks that we may encounter.



#37 venkelos

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:03 PM

No, I'll give that my newcron whines are, for the most part, for the Table Top. The "original" Necrons would've been boring crap for an RPG setting, minus now I have seen people talking about wanting to play one, and that's terrible.

 

In the Table Top, I just don't like their fluff, quite as much, with their destroying their own gods, as if they were so weak, and writing out my Pariahs, one of my favorite units (the utility of that unit not always withstanding). While I like personality, some of their new moods just made me go "Tomb Kings in space", where they did have a bit of differentiation, before. "We toppled gods, but your little stuff can scare us." Not being a big Zerg fan, I rather liked a more futuristic horde of inconsolable, implacable death drones, who didn't speak, couldn't be reasoned with, and had some nifty abilities.

 

That said, I can tolerate their new computer-lingo fluff, and it is cool for use in an RP setting.


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#38 LordBlades

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:26 AM

The "original" Necrons would've been boring crap for an RPG setting, minus now I have seen people talking about wanting to play one, and that's terrible.

 From my experience, if it exists in the setting and it doesn't possess qualities that make it obviously unplayable (like mindless, permanently enslaved to another creature etc.) sooner or later somebody will want to play one. If it does, they'll want to own one.



#39 JiveProfessor

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 11:13 AM

I do like the sort of implacable killing machines they were before, but isn't there specifically a mention in the current fluff that there is a segment of the Necron forces that are explicitly still that?

 

In terms of how I play them in the RPG setting, I will probably blend the old and the new. The rank and file warriors are Terminator-style mindless drones who pew pew all living things and may occasionally make beep-boop noises, while the leaders are mustache-twirling villains possessed of insanely grandiose ambitions ala Cobra Commander.


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#40 Kshatriya

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 01:40 PM

I do like the sort of implacable killing machines they were before, but isn't there specifically a mention in the current fluff that there is a segment of the Necron forces that are explicitly still that?

 

The ones who don't have a sentient controller are basically working off of instinct, which is somewhat reduced to an animal level by the consciousness transfer process. I'd check out The Outer Reach because both kinds of Necrons canonically exist in the Jericho Reach, since the Dynasty there has had some issues in the past couple billion years of stasis.






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