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Randomly trashing/accessing


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#1 rezwits

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 02:46 AM

I have had this discussion in other card games.  I am getting tired of it particularly.  The issue is determining how to "randomly" access or trash i.e. select a card from a player's grip.

 

I clearly tried to explain to my opponent that the best way to "randomly" select a card for either of these functions was to just roll a die.

 

He did not like this method and was crying about wanting to "pick" the card.  I told him, without getting into the subconscious mind argument, that him picking the card was not random.

 

You have to understand I am from Las Vegas, and we have, card counters, magicians, poker players (tell reading), 3-card monty street peddlers, etc.

 

First off I am not saying that having any of the above skills is a bad thing, or against the rules to possess such a prowess of the mind.  It's just that "randomly" picking a card does not allow you to use them in these circumstances.

 

I don't see what the problem is, by me insisting, that we use dice.  I had a 4-sided, 6-sided, and 10-sided, right there.

 

So in a tournament, I want to use dice, if he is upset because he feels like he is "lucky boy" by picking the card even tho that should not be used as an influence on this situation (if it exists hah) I believe it does, except for the luck of the die roll.  Because this is supposed to be random.

 

Please let me know how you guys feel.  Because I mean honestly a friend player of mine came up with a good resolution.

 

When I fan the cards out or put them on the table, what he would do is pick which direction is the start i.e. the 1 spot card.  So either:

 

[1] [2] [3] [4]

 

or 

 

[4] [3] [2] [1]

 

In turn he would be basically be able to somewhat pick and I would get to roll the die.

 

This works for me as a "COMPROMISE."  Gladly.

 

But if the player just grabs a card from my hand and I am like "a no!" roll a die...

 

What is the precedence?

 

I mean he shouldn't just be able to grab a card from my hand, right? gees

 

Let me know boys!

 

Laters...


Edited by rezwits, 28 November 2013 - 02:50 AM.


#2 Saturnine

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 03:56 AM

This is not really a rules question for me, more a question of personal preference. If you shuffle HQ, his access of a card of his choosing is effectively random. And coming from Vegas, you should also know that dice rolls can be manipulated. I don't think anyone would go so far to cheat in a game of Netrunner to manipulate dice rolls or to use gaff dice, I'm just saying that dice rolling is not really superior in terms of randomness to an arbitrary access of a shuffled HQ. The latter is by far the most common way of handling this, because it's quick and requires no extra materials, but I think rolling a die is fine as well. You just need to find some way that you can agree on. It's not really anything to lose sleep over, you're supposed to have fun.


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#3 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 05:16 AM

Lukas has even gone as far as to state that you can REQUEST your opponent to roll, but you cannot FORCE him. A shuffled HQ or Grip is sufficiently randomised if the OTHER player chooses the card.


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#4 frybender

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:02 AM

I see the OPs point but I agree with Saturnine. Unless you have real Casino dice manufactured to very precise specification dice aren't truly random either. I don't like to use dice because it takes extra time and Netrunner is already a long game. If you're really worried about people keeping count of which card is which just get in the habit of always shuffling your hand. But yeah as CF has said Lukas has already made a ruling on this. You can't force your opponent to roll dice.



#5 rezwits

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

So he should be able to force me to use "card pulling"?  I don't get a choice?

 

I don't see the Compromise here?

 

In addition, I should still be able to take the extra time to put the cards under the table and shuffle them before he just blatantly, and quickly grabs a card from my grip.  Cause if I don't get to shuffle the cards up, then he can easily track the fact that, on the first HQ run he picked the left one, then the right one.  Cause that was included in the original post that he just reached across the table and grabbed a card out of my hand.

 

But in any case, I don't I am getting anywhere with this, because to break down the situation one more time:

 

He wants to use "Card Pulling" and I want to use "Dice Rolling", should we just flip a coin to figure out which method?  

 

Because from your three post you are saying:

 

I can't force hime to use dice rolling, but he can force me to use card pulling, right?

Cause the die is just sitting on the playmat there's no time lost there...

 

Can you show me the where the ruling pages is, especially on this? (Lukas ruling)  I just started playing ANR two weeks ago, and I am looking for these resources...

 

Thanks



#6 rezwits

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 11:47 AM

Oh, I didn't even notice I was looking at the a totally different rulebook the tourney rules looked similar to the basic rules book, its in the tourney rules, under unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

But if I could find a link or two or three, to the errata page, net rulings, and conventions etc

 

Oh one other thing, about the dice being loaded, yes that is blatant cheating, I am not really talking about blatant cheating.  I am just mainly talking about a player using his SKILLS of deduction and reason to "pick" a card versus RANDOMLY determining, with the best of our resources.  Cause like I said if you got the skills then yeah you have those skills and it's not cheating.  For instance if you have two cards in a remote server, you have to concentrate on which of the cards are which, and that is using your SKILLS.   i.e. SKILLS vs RANDOM, when the book clearly says Randomly accesses/trashes.

 

I get frustrated when rulebooks use words and then you have to find some back alley net ruling for what that really means.

 

Happy Thanksgiving.


Edited by rezwits, 28 November 2013 - 12:03 PM.


#7 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:03 PM

I don't believe it's in an official document, but:

http://boardgamegeek...670207#12670207

Rule Question:
In an effort to ensure the randomness of card pick for accessing from HQ, if there are dice available, can the corporation request that the runner use them in order to choose which card(s) to access?

Response:
Josh,

Thanks for the question. The Corporation can certainly request such a thing, but the Runner does not have to use dice or any other accessories to access cards from HQ; a shuffle from the Corp is enough to fulfill the definition of "randomly." Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger


So on the flip side, when you do damage to the runner, or when you ARE the runner and accessing HQ, he has no right to demand you DON'T roll a die. Ultimately though, it's the choice of the person picking the card.

Edited by CommissarFeesh, 28 November 2013 - 12:04 PM.


#8 rezwits

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

Ah, ok that makes sense because I was going over that, in the basic rule book, over whether it was the runner doing the function of determining randomness or the corp for net damage.

 

Cool I will roll with that.  -PUN hehe laters...



#9 Saturnine

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

Cause that was included in the original post that he just reached across the table and grabbed a card out of my hand.

 

I think nobody (including me) really took notice of this, because it's obvious to everyone that you should get to shuffle the cards. Let me break it down again, because my post didn't explain it well either, apparently. Here's how I see a random access is usually done:

 

1. The corp gives HQ a shuffle. 2. The runner picks a card from HQ and accesses it. 3. If multiple cards are accessed, the runner picks the first card to access, steals or trashes if applicable, then picks another card from the remaining cards in HQ -- repeat until all accesses are resolved. 4. Return all cards not stolen or trashed to HQ.

 

Again, this is probably the most widely used method of resolving an HQ access, though if the runner wants to roll a die that's fine. To be honest, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with the corp rolling the die, even though it technically shouldn't matter (might be the pen & paper player in me ... I always want to be in charge of my dice-related fate). Given the ubiquity and wide acceptance of the method described above, I do think it's odd to try and enforce the die roll, though perhaps you are less opposed to the hand-picking method once you get to shuffle (as you obviously should before such an access).


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#10 rezwits

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 01:07 PM

This just sucks for the professional player in me :(  because it seems like someone just wants to keep the "fun nature of picking a card" in the game.  When we should be able to get down to brass tax and computerize this or be exact as possible, since we are dealing with math and numbers in this game, and I would like to write computer programs and what not to determine card statistics, and etc  which some people already do.

 

It's just laziness on the designer(s) part.

 

I mean don't get me wrong I loved Mind Twisting someone in Magic and just grabbing 4 cards out of 7 card hand on turn one, but that's not really what this game is about, I feel it's an over the top TECH/Numbers game, and I want it micro managed as much as possible, cause to me this isn't magic! not at all not even close, the only things in the game that are, is the fact that we are playing with cards, have a hand, a graveyard etc with play mats and that's about all.  From then on out I am trying to mode out and get into a whole different way of thinking. :P distance myself from the archaic... HAH



#11 etherial

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 09:16 AM

In addition, I should still be able to take the extra time to put the cards under the table and shuffle them before he just blatantly, and quickly grabs a card from my grip.  Cause if I don't get to shuffle the cards up, then he can easily track the fact that, on the first HQ run he picked the left one, then the right one.  Cause that was included in the original post that he just reached across the table and grabbed a card out of my hand...I can't force hime to use dice rolling, but he can force me to use card pulling, right?

Cause the die is just sitting on the playmat there's no time lost there...

 

One of my local players will shuffle her hand, tell you to pick a number from 1 to however many cards are in her hand, then deal out cards until you get to the one accessed.

 

Dice rolling is actually inefficient if the runner runs HQ more than once in a turn. You will have to shuffle your hand to hide the card they already accessed, which is why Dice Rolling is not in vogue even among the "Randomize, Damnit!" crowd.

 

Note that while you cannot demand a die, your opponent cannot demand to touch your cards. You can ask them to point or speak.

 

My advice to you is to shuffle your hand constantly during the Runner's turn as well as immediately after any time you draw. And to keep your cards above the table.


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#12 rezwits

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 03:43 AM

That's funny cause that's exactly the method I am going to use.

 

Shuffle my cards conceal all of them even the sweat on the backs :P and then cover them with my hands and state,

 

"Starting from the top 1 to X, pick a number" X = hand size.  Then after they state their number I will count cards from the top.

 

This seems to be the most, sufficient method, for those who love to play this little "sub-game" within the game.

 

Thanks



#13 Nerdmeister

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 04:44 AM

Most redundant topic... ever.

 

And yes: I went there.

And no: I´m not wasting any more time on this.



#14 Dydra

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:38 AM

That's funny cause that's exactly the method I am going to use.

 

Shuffle my cards conceal all of them even the sweat on the backs :P and then cover them with my hands and state,

 

"Starting from the top 1 to X, pick a number" X = hand size.  Then after they state their number I will count cards from the top.

 

This seems to be the most, sufficient method, for those who love to play this little "sub-game" within the game.

 

Thanks


If someone does this, I will slap him, laugh in his face and call a judge.

Mister Las Vegas, a simple shuffle of the cards face down, would be more than enough. The effect of you having your hands OVER them and asking him to name a number doesn't change anything. You still, like him, have 0 clue which card is where. 

So instead of trying to look smart, cool and a real player ... you end up looking pathetic, jack-ass   " PLAYER " 

That about sums it up ... 
 



#15 Grimwalker

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:49 AM

 

That's funny cause that's exactly the method I am going to use.

 

Shuffle my cards conceal all of them even the sweat on the backs :P and then cover them with my hands and state,

 

"Starting from the top 1 to X, pick a number" X = hand size.  Then after they state their number I will count cards from the top.

 

This seems to be the most, sufficient method, for those who love to play this little "sub-game" within the game.

 

Thanks

If someone does this, I will slap him, laugh in his face and call a judge.

Mister Las Vegas, a simple shuffle of the cards face down, would be more than enough. The effect of you having your hands OVER them and asking him to name a number doesn't change anything. You still, like him, have 0 clue which card is where. 

So instead of trying to look smart, cool and a real player ... you end up looking pathetic, jack-ass   " PLAYER " 

That about sums it up ... 
 

 

It's very possible due to wear and tear on card sleeves, that cards will end up "marked" through no fault of their own. I know in my meta it's very common to try and spot any identifiable scuffs or scratches so that you can remember which cards are which. In a tournament setting, there's nothing wrong with this guy's method to ensure true randomness. If I were a judge and I were called over for something so trivial, I would ask what's wrong with you and why you have such a bad attitude.

 

I also one time was at a game night, I was getting over a nasty cold, and so I told my opponents, "I won't touch your cards, please don't touch mine, because I don't want to make anyone else sick." And I used the "Pick a number from 1-5" method, and if it was an agenda, I placed it on the corner of *my* playmat. (Then again I almost always do this after an incident where stolen agendas got shuffled into the runner's deck during a regional.)


Edited by Grimwalker, 12 December 2013 - 08:49 AM.

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#16 twinstarbmc

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:16 PM

It's very possible due to wear and tear on card sleeves, that cards will end up "marked" through no fault of their own. I know in my meta it's very common to try and spot any identifiable scuffs or scratches so that you can remember which cards are which. In a tournament setting, there's nothing wrong with this guy's method to ensure true randomness. If I were a judge and I were called over for something so trivial, I would ask what's wrong with you and why you have such a bad attitude.

 

And that, folks, is why you use card sleeves.






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