Jump to content



Photo

My issue with Aptitudes


  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

#41 Surak

Surak

    Member

  • Members
  • 335 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:04 AM

Pitching in on the Aptitude front I will be creating a new version of my Aptitude Calc excel sheet that I made for Only War ages ago to bring it in line with Beta 2.

 

Once I have it working I'll put it up on google docs and distribute the link here.

 

Regards

 

Surak


  • Lynata likes this

Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

Part of the TeamACES youtube channel http://www.youtube.c...Ha0q8lrmTRGATFA


#42 Tenebrae

Tenebrae

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,023 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:38 AM

Meanwhile, I've started throwing an Android App together, for me, my friends and anybody else. It's still on the drawing board mostly, since I only started this morning on the train, but I hope to make some progress tonight and tomorrow night. Should get a rudimentary shape by then.
I'll make it work for OW and DH2.0b2, if I can.

Very nice! Keep us posted, please!



#43 Scyndria

Scyndria

    Member

  • Members
  • 89 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:57 AM

 

I don't mind being given graphic representations of "Talent trees" for ease of checking prerequisites.

 

I do take issue with lumping all remotely similar Talents into one big "tree" of cumulative prerequisites, because it constrains advancement and makes all characters interested in the same field advance exactly the same.

Yes, when Scyndria said "Make those talents in groups", I threw up a little in my mouth. I do not think that lumping talents together is the way to go, but graphical representation, perhaps akin to a "Tech tree" for those familiar with such things from 4x gaming or similar, would be very nice.

 

Well, it was meant to be in a graphical way.



#44 Surak

Surak

    Member

  • Members
  • 335 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 01:47 PM

Hi guys,

 

Aptitude calc is now up - link is in my sig or in the thread dedicated to it on these forums

 

Regards

 

surak


  • Lynata likes this

Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

Part of the TeamACES youtube channel http://www.youtube.c...Ha0q8lrmTRGATFA


#45 ragnar63

ragnar63

    Member

  • Members
  • 386 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 04:29 PM

Aptitudes have made a reappearance in the new beta, along with a Google docs spreadsheet you can use to calculate costs in another thread in this very forum.

 

I'm not a big fan of Aptitudes. They're a nice idea. The problem with DH1 is that each character class is locked into a specific table of advances and can't take anything outside of it. With BC/OW, they quite wisely opened up character creation so that any kind of character could take any advance.  In order to maintain some character specialization and not make characters too samey, Aptitudes were introduced to affect the costs of advances. So the smart guy got a discount on smart skills and the shooty guy got a discount on shooty skills. Nice idea.

 

The problem is that, in practice, figuring out how much it costs to purchase anything takes way too long. You've got to flip to the character advance cost table, flip back to the skill or talent page to get its associated Aptitudes, its tier, then back to the table to figure out how much you need to pay to get it by cross referencing two tables half a book apart and your character sheet. Very clunky in actual practice.

 

This system would work great, however, if all of that cost calculation was done for you. The original DH2 beta had sort of a half measure - each Role had a table that was essentially the costs derived from assumed Aptitudes that you used to figure out the cost. For talents, the cost was listed along with the talent's description You still had to do some math, but everything you needed to know was right on one page.

 

Totally agree! I thought the aptitudes in Only War were clunky to use, and unfortunately the new Beta version is the same. I play in a group who also calculates their advances at the table, I am afraid. FFG have never really solved this one, though a further look at the Talent Trees might have been advised.


Edited by ragnar63, 28 November 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#46 Solzak

Solzak

    Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 05:35 PM

Is the solution for all the page flipping simply to duplicate the exp costs table into each chapter.

So the talents chapter has the talents costs at the start?

After all your altitudes don't change after character generation, so we already know what they are.
(For the example of spending exp on existing characters)

#47 Naviward

Naviward

    Member

  • Members
  • 239 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 05:36 PM

 

Aptitudes have made a reappearance in the new beta, along with a Google docs spreadsheet you can use to calculate costs in another thread in this very forum.

 

I'm not a big fan of Aptitudes. They're a nice idea. The problem with DH1 is that each character class is locked into a specific table of advances and can't take anything outside of it. With BC/OW, they quite wisely opened up character creation so that any kind of character could take any advance.  In order to maintain some character specialization and not make characters too samey, Aptitudes were introduced to affect the costs of advances. So the smart guy got a discount on smart skills and the shooty guy got a discount on shooty skills. Nice idea.

 

The problem is that, in practice, figuring out how much it costs to purchase anything takes way too long. You've got to flip to the character advance cost table, flip back to the skill or talent page to get its associated Aptitudes, its tier, then back to the table to figure out how much you need to pay to get it by cross referencing two tables half a book apart and your character sheet. Very clunky in actual practice.

 

This system would work great, however, if all of that cost calculation was done for you. The original DH2 beta had sort of a half measure - each Role had a table that was essentially the costs derived from assumed Aptitudes that you used to figure out the cost. For talents, the cost was listed along with the talent's description You still had to do some math, but everything you needed to know was right on one page.

 

Totally agree! I thought the aptitudes in Only War were clunky to use, and unfortunately the new Beta version is the same. I play in a group who also calculates their advances at the table, I am afraid. FFG have never really solved this one, though a further look at the Talent Trees might have been advised.

 

 

Yeah, the talent trees weren't a bad idea, although the execution in the original beta certainly needed some work.

 

On the aptitudes front I don't have a real problem with them (although they can be a bit heavy to work through). However, I felt the original beta's fixed cost lists of skills and then just general talent costs was a more elegant solution to having a controlled system that people could still just buy from anywhere.



#48 Adeptus-B

Adeptus-B

    Part-Time Super Villian

  • Members
  • 1,918 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:37 PM

I prefer the more open system of Aptitudes to the 'channeling' effect of Trees; my only real complaint with Aptitudes from Only War (I still haven't had time to do more than skim Beta2) is that there are instances of the writers/designers making some head-scratching decisions about who gets what Aptitude. For instance, neither Catachans or Heavy Gunners get Strength as an Aptitude- zuh? And every Weapon Specialist gets Fieldcraft- even if they are from a Hive World and have never seen a forest before?

 

Are there similar goofy Aptitude 'glitches' in Beta2?

 

(And for the record I prefer Trees for psychic powers, since they don't have Prerequisites to get the powerful stuff the way Talents do.)


  • Lynata likes this

#49 Kaihlik

Kaihlik

    Member

  • Members
  • 453 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:05 PM

I wouldn't mind clumping related talents in their own sections and having a summery of xp costs on the character sheet. That would go some way to making the process easier if they are set on aptitudes.

#50 susanbrindle

susanbrindle

    Member

  • Members
  • 201 posts

Posted 28 November 2013 - 11:21 PM

The problem is that, in practice, figuring out how much it costs to purchase anything takes way too long. You've got to flip to the character advance cost table, flip back to the skill or talent page to get its associated Aptitudes, its tier, then back to the table to figure out how much you need to pay to get it by cross referencing two tables half a book apart and your character sheet. Very clunky in actual practice.

I feel like the flipping problem is easily solved- just make a second doc real quick. I feel like when my group moves over to this system, someone will spend two minutes scribbling all the charts onto a piece of notebook paper, and that'll be that. After that, it'll be glorious, because everyone can look at the Talents section at the same time, and not have to flip back to their Career charts.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, Characteristic and Skill advances are on the same page. It's only talents that are seperated- so yeah. Write the nine relevant numbers down for reference and you're golden.


Edited by susanbrindle, 28 November 2013 - 11:23 PM.

  • Lynata likes this

#51 cps

cps

    Member

  • Members
  • 928 posts

Posted 29 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

Jesus.

 

The fact that the tables for XP advances are separated by ~50 pages is one thing, but reprinting them in two other chapters is not at all a solution. The issue is that even if I have that table on hand I still need to cross reference what's on my character sheet to the advance's row and column in the table every time I spend XP. Reprinting the tables in other places does nothing to solve the problem of doing the same work over and over.

 

 

Hi guys,

 

Aptitude calc is now up - link is in my sig or in the thread dedicated to it on these forums

 

Regards

 

surak

This is great, thank you. Hopefully FFG will steal your work and slap some skulls on it and call it a day.

 

Couple of suggestions: auto-fill the General aptitude, just for convenience. It also makes more sense to have all of the talents lumped into one table and add tier as a column - that way you can sort all of the talents by any of the columns you want and see all of them.



#52 Surak

Surak

    Member

  • Members
  • 335 posts

Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:57 AM


 

 

This is great, thank you. Hopefully FFG will steal your work and slap some skulls on it and call it a day.

Hi guys,

 

Aptitude calc is now up - link is in my sig or in the thread dedicated to it on these forums

 

Regards

 

surak

 

Couple of suggestions: auto-fill the General aptitude, just for convenience. It also makes more sense to have all of the talents lumped into one table and add tier as a column - that way you can sort all of the talents by any of the columns you want and see all of them.

 

cps,

 

glad you like it, I've got no problem with FFG using it as long as they keep is free to use :)

 

as for the formatting;

 

The last Only War did have the "General" aptitude pre-loaded, didn't realise that I'd missed it this time around - thanks for the heads up.

 

The reason for the current arrangements of the talents is due to me keeping it as simple as possible to run on as many devices as possible, I had some weird errors pre-release with the combined talents table so here we are - I may give it another try later and see what happens.

 

any further feedback is welcome, if you can aim it at the thead I've setup that would be handy as it will stop us hijacking other threads.

 

Regards

 

Surak


Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

Part of the TeamACES youtube channel http://www.youtube.c...Ha0q8lrmTRGATFA


#53 Benj02

Benj02

    Member

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:11 AM

The pdf is dead simple to jump back and forth in.  Admittedly advancement costs are spread out needlessly across three pages (could easily be on one), but memorizing the page numbers or bookmarking the sections digital or otherwise is not difficult.  Just write down your aptitudes and away you go.  if you need a cheat sheet memorize pages 51, 52, 53 & 90, 91, 92.  Two groups of three adjacent pages; not sure that i understand what is clunky especially when you type in the page number and poof there you are.  If you play a psyker then well page flipping is inevitable with power selection.  Though an index of powers and their prerequisites and costs could be created and condensed without too much fuss.  Too clunky in my opinion is searching through multiple books for character advancement options.


Edited by Benj02, 05 December 2013 - 01:22 AM.

  • Elior likes this

#54 Cail

Cail

    Member

  • Members
  • 400 posts

Posted 10 December 2013 - 02:49 AM

seems like a whole lot of whining for something that could be made easier just by putting the cost of the talents (respective to aptitudes) in the talent section of the book, or even as a foot note on every page of the talents section.


  • Intellect is the Understanding of Knowledge.
  • Sentience is the Basest Form of Intellect.
  • Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
  • Comprehension is the Key to all Things

 


#55 Alox

Alox

    Member

  • Members
  • 349 posts

Posted 10 December 2013 - 06:50 AM

I don't know if the excel/google-doc sheet posted does this, but all we need is an application where we can select which apptitudes a character has and then print out a document where all the attributes, talents and skills are grouped by costs. Give it to the player and the player can sit and do character planning without having to look in the book at all (unless to check what the skill/talents does).


Edited by Alox, 10 December 2013 - 06:51 AM.





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS