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Are Heroic legacies worth the cost?


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#1 Tyrrell

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:16 AM

I'm tempted to say that heroic legacies are a good game mechanic because it isn't clear whether or not I'd want them for my klil team rather than the xp spent other places-  thus they're not too strong or weak.  On the other hand I haven't played the game too much and it's very likely that I'm not catching all of the subtlties of them.

 

Let's take a look at costs of the initial purchase of a legacy.

 

First, purchasing the legacy with xp is an opportunity cost, it means every member of your team didn't spend 1000-1500 xp on something else.  Even at high ranks that's probably 2 or three skills or talents that they're not going to get. 

 

To use heroic legacies well it seems to me that you'd want to have good tactics skils. That's another heathy chunk of xp that you'd be putting into tactics skills as opposed to something else.

 

Finaly there is taking the oath of the legacy for a mission.  This prevents you from using your squad mode abilities, no bolter assault, no strongpoint, just the manuvers in the legacy.  If the characters are rank 5 or more when they make the purchase they'll be giving up the higher rank versions of the squad abilities for the mission.  That's rather a big deal.  They also don't get the benefit of the oath itself, taking the legacy oath confers no universal bonus to the kill team.

 

 

What do they get in return?

 

They get five new roles for the squad.  These all give members of the squad (appart from the squad leader) a few abilities if they can switch into the role.  Not every member of the kill team is equiped to take every role, but I can see the roles to be rougly equivelent in utility to the skills and talents that the characters may have chosen to purchase with the xp that htey instead spent on the legacy.

 

They get three squad manuvers.  These don't look as powerful to me as the squad mode abilities that they'd give up (at least at rank 5) but they can potentially run them  as often as they want without ever running out of cohesion. This might be excellent for long missions but sub optmal for short ones where our kill team can burn through their 12 cohesion in a short time (on the other hand the overrun manuver in a legacy could be like calling furious charge every single turn).

 

Then there is the possibility of expanding the legacy to include more manuvers and more roles.  This is, to my breif look, an even more questionable purcase.  if you have a six member kill team do you really want to spend 400 from everyone just to unlock roles that only one or two of the characters may take? Perhaps you do but I think getting everyone in the squad 400 xp more towards their pesonal advancement would typically be a better choice. Extra manuvers on the other hand I can kind of see  as equvalent to a new talent for everyone in the kill team and they're not that expensive, they might be a more reasonable expenditure.

 

What does anyone else think?


Edited by Tyrrell, 26 November 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#2 BrotherHuitztli

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 05:32 AM

I wondered this same thing and then decided on a house rule. Squad experience. After a mission the kill-team (in my case Kill-Team Umbra) gets a number of exp equal to what the individual members. This experience can be used to purchase squad followers, heroic legacies and other things that would benefit the group as a whole. I've been working on the rule to get the finer points down before posting it in the house rules section.



#3 Tyrrell

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:37 AM

I wondered this same thing and then decided on a house rule. Squad experience. After a mission the kill-team (in my case Kill-Team Umbra) gets a number of exp equal to what the individual members.[SOMTHING IS MISSING HERE] This experience can be used to purchase squad followers, heroic legacies and other things that would benefit the group as a whole. I've been working on the rule to get the finer points down before posting it in the house rules section.

Are you sure that they aren't a good deal s they are? I've thought about how nasty spamming the overrun manuver every turn might be, That could be really worth th eexperience cost.

 

Has no one else even read the section?



#4 BrotherHuitztli

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 09:37 AM

I wasn't on my computer so I was paraphrasing I'll have the full rule up in a bit.

 

And yes it is a bit powerful, but that's the point. Also since cohesion can still be lost due to the normal means so all it takes is a few grenades and you can't use overrun.

 

In a squad of 4 (All rank 1) the squad leader has a fellowship of 53 and the command skill. They have only 10 cohesion. One rocket from a chaos trooper that deals 10 damage to atleast one brother and they can't use overrun since it has a chohesion threshold of 10. If cohesion ever drops below 7 you can't use any maneuvers.

 

So it works out fine since it's easier to lose than it is to gain.

 

Also I was going to ask you your thoughts on something. Since a heroic legacy superceedes squad mode does that mean that they can still use special abilities that rely on squad mode. Obviously the tactical expertise wouldn't, but say unrelenting devastation, wrathful decent and create toxins would they work? or you know maybe only when the person is filling a role.



#5 Tyrrell

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:48 PM

Also I was going to ask you your thoughts on something. Since a heroic legacy superceedes squad mode does that mean that they can still use special abilities that rely on squad mode. Obviously the tactical expertise wouldn't, but say unrelenting devastation, wrathful decent and create toxins would they work? or you know maybe only when the person is filling a role.

Looking at the book again I see that heroic legacy superceeds the oath, not squad mode. The characters stil have squad mode and solo mode

 

Something else that makes legacies strong is tha fact that apparently aside from the role of squad leader you can have more than one kill team member filling the same roll at the same time.  I'm still of the opinion that heroic legacies aren't quite the best way to go for sheer utility unless the kill team is on a very long adventure with little chance to regain cohesion. You simply have to give up too much to get them.


Edited by Tyrrell, 02 May 2014 - 06:03 AM.

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#6 Tyrrell

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 06:17 AM

The legacies are a much better purchase for seven marine kill teams than they are for three marine kill teams.  Whoops .didn't read carefuully


Edited by Tyrrell, 02 May 2014 - 06:21 AM.


#7 Kshatriya

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 07:48 AM

Cheaper than the buy-in cost on Advanced Specialties and those are pretty clearly always worth it.

 

Every member buying something is not that big a deal when the combination of purchases is worth more than the power of non-purchasing. Like everyone buying Forging the Bond is a pretty substantial power and versatility increase versus spending that XP elsewhere.



#8 Tyrrell

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 09:38 AM

If using the legacy's only cost was the experience to get it, then it would be a no-brainer.  Where I think it becomes questionable is that the cost of using the legacy is not only purchasing it with xp and therefore not purchasing anything alse with that xp but also taking the oath of legacy and thereby cutting your kill team off from all of the squad mode manuvers; no tactical advance, no strongpoint, no bolter assault. 

 

At higher ranks I think that the standard squad mode options are better than the heroic legacy manuvers despite the fact that they cost cohesion, especially if you have stuff like strengthening the bond, the strike team specialist deed, or the tactial marine tactical expertise ability (of course if you're going heroic legacy then you shouldn't be getting strengthening the bond, the strike team specialist deed, or the tactial marine tactical expertise ability). Many of the squad mode abilities only need to be laid down one time per combat the kill team can afford the cohesion.






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