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#21 Amazing Larry

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 02:37 AM

Per terms of fluff I kind of feel like the effectiveness of ballistic vs las wepons should be reversed either by base damage values or just finding some special ammo middle ground between none and burns through the whole pack in one shot. Honestly that's something that gets to me, there are multiple alternate ammo types for godamn plasma guns (per GWs material irreplaceable pieces of archeotech) but hardly any options for the most ubiquitos piece of imperial weapons tech in existance.

 

I know OW has Regiment traits and I know now it apparently has some special rule regarding making las weapons not suck by cranking up the juice, but if the former was the case and the latter wasn't and with no better understanding of the rules that I currently have....

 

If I made my own Guard regiment I thinkl the first thing I'd do is chuck all the lasguns in favor of slug throwers with some variation of AP (manstopper) rounds.


Edited by Amazing Larry, 24 December 2013 - 02:41 AM.


#22 Fgdsfg

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:13 AM

I don't think alternate ammunition for Las-weapons would be the way to go. It would be very odd to have many different kinds of ammunition for what should be one-size-fits-all ubiquitously available generalized standard munitions. It is well-known that lasguns are outperformed by many other weapons; lasguns are used as the Kalashnikovs (R.I.P. Q_Q) of the 41st millennium.

 

Lasweapons, however, could potentially have a wide range of different patterns and types, and I think Lasweapons should have access to many different and diverse weapon upgrades.

And with that logic in mind, Hotshot Laspacks doesn't make sense and never made sense. "Hotshot Charger" makes a lot more sense, and could be an available mod/upgrade for Lasweapons - "Hellguns" being those lasguns that comes with a pre-assembled and integrated Hotshot Charger.

The "Variable Setting" should also be a Special Quality available to specific-pattern lasweapons, but also available as a general lasweapon mod/upgrade, perhaps mutually exclusive (as an upgrade) to the Hotshot Charger.

In addition to that, lasweapons could have focusing lenses, dispersal attachments, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps, to keep up with ammunition and genuinely separate the weapons, some of these mods could be easily affixed, allowing you to rearrange your output on-the-fly.

Affixing a Lasweapon Focus Lense that doubles range but forces any and all penetration to zero (no matter the weapon and attached mods), halves the damage bonus (so 1d10+4 becomes 1d10+2) and gives Accurate. Half-Range. Incompatible with Variable Setting (or whatever such a Special Quality would be called; the overcharge function simply wouldn't work without damaging the lens).

Attaching a Wide-Beam Dispersal Shocker completely disperses the laser, resulting in a brief but strong flash of light; completely removes damage, reduces range to 1/3, but let's it act as a directed Flash Grenade, extending in a 30-degree arc - the damage modifier of the Lasweapon adds to the difficulty in resisting the effects (So a 1d10+1 Laspistol would make the opponent (or ally...) take -10 to the test. 1d10+5 would mean -50 to the test, etc). Might cause permanent retinal damage or minor burns at very close ranges (such as Point-Blank) at the GM:s discretion.

Mounting (or unmounting) a "Light-Puncher" Flakburner Lens takes 1 round and a Routine (+20) Tech-Use Test or a Trivial Trade (Technomat or Armourer) Test, and transfers Bonus Damage to Penetration at a 1:1 rate (1d10+1 Pen 1 becomes 1d10 Pen 2), but removes Reliable (or, if it did not have Reliable, makes the weapon Unreliable), Accurate (if it had it), and reduces effective range by 1/2. Adds Recharge (2) Incompatible with Charge Pack Modifications and Variable Settings set to overcharge.

(Recharge (2) means that it can fire twice before needing one full round to recharge - can be forced to recharge before firing twice, but takes a Half-Action or Reaction).

Just some ideas. Making Lasweapons highly modular could make up for the many different kinds of ammunitions they don't get, and simply make the different Types of weapons matter more, without necessarily "overpowering" lasweapons in regards to how much they are actually supposed to suck in the setting.

These are just brainstormed - they haven't actually been playtested at all. Mileage may vary and without doing crunch on the various lasweapons, it's impossible to tell if this would be worthwile or unbalancing. Just throwing it out there.
 

 

Minions and Comrades serve different functions.
 
Comrades are a mechanism to have a 10-man squad while a) having half the number of players and b) still making the PCs completely central.

I know what they're for. I'm saying I don't like that mechanic and how it's depicted (or how it lacks being depicted). Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you don't understand it - in my experience, to me, it's usually the opposite.

Also, Comrades are far more than what you describe. In both cases, Companions/Minions vs. Comrades, they are effectively extensions of the player characters, following their orders. And in Only War, Comrades even have a wide range of talents associated with them. Yet there's a complete absence of rules regarding their actual nature or guidelines to generate their statlines.

"I tell my Comrade to shoot at that ork over there."

"Alright. What's his BS?"

"I.. have no clue? Don't you have stats for these things?"

"Lolno."


Fgdsfgnfsdhfsjd!

Even their creation is incredibly shallow. I realize that this is due to the comrades never being supposed to outshine their 'masters', but it all ends up being very vague. What can an Operator's Comrade do? Can he assist the Operator in Operate tests? Can he assist in Tech-Use? I don't know, do you?

Instead, I think that the "Minion" rules should be used in Only War, with the player characters (when applicable) simply gaining a 'Minion', created with pre-defined restrictions aside from the regular "Minion" creation rules, including "No special traits, humans with minimum characteristics of 20 to 25 and a maximum of 30 to 35, only Tier 1 Talents, and only these Skills based on the player characters Specialization" (so an Operator Comrade might get a choice of Operate skills, Tech-Use, etc, while a Sergeant's Comrade is forced to have Tech-Use and may choose to have a single Tactics skill or Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis).

Or at least something along those lines.


Edited by Fgdsfg, 24 December 2013 - 04:34 AM.

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#23 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 11:50 AM

Too much granularity and effort spent on something that will die in 5 rounds.



#24 Fgdsfg

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 02:33 PM

Too much granularity and effort spent on something that will die in 5 rounds.

 

You never replace your Comrades or give the players opportunity to use those Comrade Talents?

Comrades aren't chaff - if they were intended to die 5 rounds into a session, they wouldn't be such a big part of the Specialization-specific Talents and have so many auxiliary rules associated with them.

Comrades are there to be used. They serve both a mechanical and immersive function. The idea that "they're going to die anyway and thus they don't need stats" is ridiculous! Every single mook in the game "will die in 5 rounds", yet we give them all stats! Why should Comrades that have specific talents interacting with them be any different?


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#25 Amazing Larry

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:10 PM

I think the problem with lasguns is mostly that they got statted in DH where everything had less armor and less toughness, personally I think they should be better than a rinky dink autogun but they aren't because the autogun can get special ammo. While maybe not right for DH I think more RT appropriate lasgun profiles would give the lasgun 1d10+4 damage and the hellgun 1d10+8 but take away all of it's Pen. That would put the weapons firmly in a middle ground between slug throwers and bolters in terms of effectiveness. Yes it would give the hellgun more potential max damage than a bolter but because the bolter has tearing and Pen4 the reality is that the bolter would always do more damage in practice.



#26 Kasatka

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:24 AM

I think its important to bear in mind that a base autogun and a base lasgun are similar in performance, its only when you add special ammo onto auto weapons that they excel. And you can add mods onto lasguns too, so they CAN compete.

 

But guess what, las-weapons are cheap to manufacture and maintain and are thusly produced in the trillions of units to equip the countless forces of the imperium. Those forces with no technical aptitude, who often don't have the resources or time to wait on bulky specialized ammunition to arrive at wherever they are operating.

I mean if funding and resources wasn't an issue then all of the forces of mankind would be equipped with boltguns and power swords. But it is an issue, and when resources get stretched thin and supply lines broken i would much rather my forces be equipped with rugged lasguns over autoguns that may well do a bit more damage but will jam more often and run out of ammo far quicker.

Also bear in mind that an average Imperial guard 'unit' is the platoon which will have anywhere from 15 to 50 or more men, who will each have a lasgun of some sort, who can each burst fire for MANY shots. Many will miss, but they will supress an enemy. Some will hit and of those hits some will critically hit (which always does a minimum of 1 point of damage - even to a space marine, a daemon or whatever :P ).

 

So yeah, the lasgun really is represented quite well in RT.


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#27 Utherix

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 09:24 PM

I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

That's why after modifying the Hellgun to give it accurate, you modify the power pack to a "hotshot hotshot" power pack, which has fewers lasers in it but they give tearing. Suddenly we have 3 more pen one less damage solo bolt gun :)

 

I don't see why giving it tearing is any more difficult than giving it accurate.


Edited by Utherix, 29 July 2014 - 01:38 PM.


#28 LordTeague

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 10:09 AM

Of course, given that nearly everything else about the Long Las is identical between Only War and Rogue Trader, you can always houserule the Long Las in RT to have Felling (which removes one multiplier of Unnatural Toughness), seeing as the Only War version has Felling (2) (which removes two levels of it). I think the main reason it doesn't have that in Rogue Trader is that the Felling rule doesn't exist in the core rulebook for Rogue Trader. Or if the jump from minus two levels to minus a single multiplier seems a bit much, you could say Felling on a Long Las reduces the multiplier by x0.5, rounding down the resulting toughness bonus. That bit of conversion difficulty may be the other reason Rogue Trader doesn't have Felling on a Long Las. 

 

A similar argument could also be applied for the Lascannon having Proven (3) in Rogue Trader, with no conversion difficulties like the above. And frankly if someone manages to get their hands on a Lascannon and all the prequisites to use it effectively, they probably deserve the Proven (3) for that weapon. 



#29 Fgdsfg

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 10:46 AM

Of course, given that nearly everything else about the Long Las is identical between Only War and Rogue Trader, you can always houserule the Long Las in RT to have Felling (which removes one multiplier of Unnatural Toughness), seeing as the Only War version has Felling (2) (which removes two levels of it). I think the main reason it doesn't have that in Rogue Trader is that the Felling rule doesn't exist in the core rulebook for Rogue Trader. Or if the jump from minus two levels to minus a single multiplier seems a bit much, you could say Felling on a Long Las reduces the multiplier by x0.5, rounding down the resulting toughness bonus. That bit of conversion difficulty may be the other reason Rogue Trader doesn't have Felling on a Long Las. 

 

A similar argument could also be applied for the Lascannon having Proven (3) in Rogue Trader, with no conversion difficulties like the above. And frankly if someone manages to get their hands on a Lascannon and all the prequisites to use it effectively, they probably deserve the Proven (3) for that weapon. 

 

Felling could just be re-written to apply to Toughness Bonus granted by Unnatural Toughness. That means that if someone has Rogue Trader Unnatural Toughness (x2) and a Toughness Bonus of 4 (now 8), and is shot at by Felling (2), it counts the Toughness Bonus as 6.

If a weapon has Felling (5), it would reduce the Toughness Bonus to 4.

I think that would be a neater way to do it, and honestly, it should've been like that from the start, reducing Toughness Bonus, not just Unnatural Toughness, down to the target's natural Toughness Bonus.


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#30 Utherix

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:25 PM

What's the deal with felling? I don't get how a weapon removes toughness but doesn't have penetration. All the extra damage of an accurate weapon is given by the accurate trait to show that the shot is really well placed. Is Felling saying that unnatural toughness monsters have weaker weak points?


Edited by Utherix, 28 July 2014 - 01:26 PM.


#31 Fgdsfg

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

What's the deal with felling? I don't get how a weapon removes toughness but doesn't have penetration. All the extra damage of an accurate weapon is given by the accurate trait to show that the shot is really well placed. Is Felling saying that unnatural toughness monsters have weaker weak points?

Judging by the flavour text, Felling is all about the weapon's (or the weapon's rounds) ability to punch through "even the toughest hides". In a nutshell, I imagine they're good at tearing through tough hide, skin and bone, but isn't suited for punching through actual armour.

...it seems a bit silly, yeah, especially when it comes to weapons that get Felling without having a single point of Penetration.

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#32 Magellan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:14 AM

Doesn't like, Ascension have rules for how Felling interacts with old-school unnatural toughness? Pretty sure it reduces your unnatural toughness multiplier by one per rank in felling. A Felling (1) weapon would turn UTx3 into UTx2, for example.


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