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#1 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:52 AM

Can a long-las be rebuilt/adapted in a Lucius-hotshot pattern?

How would the new stats look like?

 

Range increased even further, AP of a Hellgun?

 

Also, how many successes through Trade-Armourer are necessary?
I believe it would including coating some components into heat resistant alloys, adapting the ammo supplier to use on of those backpacks, custom-building an entire new barrel using a mix of both layouts.

 

I would be more mobile/easy to use than a lascannon, but is it still worth it?


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#2 Magellan

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:34 PM

Seems more reasonable to turn a hellgun into a long-hellgun than to up the power on a regular long-las. If you're the type who allows that sort of tinkering, it probably shouldn't be too hard, considering that however you slice it, a solo-bolter with organgrinder rounds is a much better substitute for a lascannon.


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#3 Erathia

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:14 AM

If you mean Hotshot packs, a long-las can already use those so no modification would be required. As for what would be required to "upgrade" a gun, that's heresy by Imperium standards, so normally Trade (Armourer) wouldn't apply, since that's for building from STCs that are well-known and discovered. Such a thing would be unthinkable to any good, clean Imperial citizen.

 

Screw that though, you're a Rogue Trader and you recruit Hereteks by the dozens - good thing too since they kill themselves off in blasphemous experiments at about that rate. First have them make a Trade Test to build a Long-Las, and then a second one to build the Hellgun (still for the same weapon) to prove that they understand the principles of both. Then combine the two into one ridiculous difficulty (which could put it below -60), and for every Shift of success they scored on their Trade tests previously, lower the difficulty by 5. As long as the cumulative modifier for the final Trade ends up above -60, they can make one last test to forge the weapons together.

 

As for what it should be, "Accurate" and "Semi/Full-Auto" never made a lot of sense to me. I would just allow your players to use the damage of a Hellgun and leave the remainder of the weapon stats as a longlas. Then bring the Mechanicus around eager to know where they found the STC for this marvelous new weapon he's been producing.


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#4 Amazing Larry

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:37 AM

I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

 

I can see how Las weapons would be viable in Dark Heresy but even for red shirts in RT why wouldn't you just buy them autoguns with manstopper rounds instead? They do the same damage have enough pen to negate mook armor and they're full auto so they do more damage per turn and can supress. Why would you want the long las when the slug throwing Sniper Rifle in the Into the Storm armory is easily available to anyone with even a mediocre profit factor and has more built in features?

 

I had one of my players (who was new) ask me the other day if he could go to the ship's armory and get a las pistol, obviously getting weapons doesn't work that way per the rules but I thought about it for a moment and I told him that for all I cared he could have ten of the things. So yeah as of Sunday new house rule in my game you can have as many lasguns as you want because they suck.



#5 Wincent

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 03:48 AM

I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

 

I can see how Las weapons would be viable in Dark Heresy but even for red shirts in RT why wouldn't you just buy them autoguns with manstopper rounds instead? They do the same damage have enough pen to negate mook armor and they're full auto so they do more damage per turn and can supress. Why would you want the long las when the slug throwing Sniper Rifle in the Into the Storm armory is easily available to anyone with even a mediocre profit factor and has more built in features?

 

I had one of my players (who was new) ask me the other day if he could go to the ship's armory and get a las pistol, obviously getting weapons doesn't work that way per the rules but I thought about it for a moment and I told him that for all I cared he could have ten of the things. So yeah as of Sunday new house rule in my game you can have as many lasguns as you want because they suck.

 

I think it's a matter of how you handle logistics and up-keep tests.

Las weapon have virtually unlimited ammo supply, so lasguns are perfect weapon for masses of infantry on prolonged missions. They can also come in handy if there's a lot of dungeon crawling and/or survival style adventures.

Other than those and I completly agree (crunch-wise at least).



#6 Tenebrae

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:56 AM

I'm a bit curious why you'd even want to bother with it. Las weapons are so **** I can't imagine why you'd willingly choose to use them, even Hell weapons are essentially crippled by the toughness bonuses of most RT characters and NPCs despite having really good penetration. Buy a bolter instead and benefit from the tearing rule, tearing is badass and non-archeotech bolters pretty easy to get ahold of.

 

I can see how Las weapons would be viable in Dark Heresy but even for red shirts in RT why wouldn't you just buy them autoguns with manstopper rounds instead? They do the same damage have enough pen to negate mook armor and they're full auto so they do more damage per turn and can supress. Why would you want the long las when the slug throwing Sniper Rifle in the Into the Storm armory is easily available to anyone with even a mediocre profit factor and has more built in features?

 

I had one of my players (who was new) ask me the other day if he could go to the ship's armory and get a las pistol, obviously getting weapons doesn't work that way per the rules but I thought about it for a moment and I told him that for all I cared he could have ten of the things. So yeah as of Sunday new house rule in my game you can have as many lasguns as you want because they suck.

Before posting this, did you actually read the hotshot charge pack (which effectively grants tearing, even if the writer was too stupid to refer to that rule)? Or notice how the topic refers to the longlas? And then read accurate?

In my experice, a longlas with hot shot charge packs is closer to a single shot auto cannon that to a pityfull little bolter.



#7 Amazing Larry

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:42 PM

It's been awhile since I read the hotshot special ammo rule but if I recall it causes the weapon to fire a single much more powerful shot afterwhich it has to be reloaded, but I definately use the accurate rule enough to know all the nuances of how it works. If you want a weapon with both the tearing and accurate rules buy the solo bolter because that doesn't have to be reloaded after every shot.


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#8 Tenebrae

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:24 AM

The solo bolter is certainly amazing, no debate about that.



#9 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 07:25 AM

My AM wants to build a layout that can be mass produced and easily recharged just like las weapons.

It's not just about him.


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#10 Erathia

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:12 AM

My AM wants to build a layout that can be mass produced and easily recharged just like las weapons.

It's not just about him.

 

If your Explorator thinks it's not just about him then clearly we have had different experiences with Explorators.

 

I agree with your point though that the real advantages of flashlights las-weapons over bolters is that las ammo is so ubiquitous that outfitting an army with them make sense because of how easy it would be to keep them loaded in ammunition. They also have a much higher clip rate - my campaign's beloved Merovech Assault Lasguns have a clip of 120 and a full-auto rate of 5, meaning someone wielding one can suppress an area for up to 24 rounds without pause.


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#11 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:56 PM

Well if you incorporate the variable setting rule from BC/OW lasweapons become a lot more impressive.



#12 Amazing Larry

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 07:36 PM

Well if you incorporate the variable setting rule from BC/OW lasweapons become a lot more impressive.

 

If I had either of those sourcebooks I imagine I would, because as it stands it becomes almost silly how worthless the things are. I know that the Imperial Guard like the WW2 armies it's proimarily based upon inflicts about 70% of it's kills with artillery, bombings and tanks and unlike those armies it has to constantly fight terrifying space monsters but at the same time the lasgun as it's lsted in the RT rules sucks so much that even a super lucky shot could never kill an Ork or an Eldar anyway.



#13 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:00 PM

They're meant to be used en masse.



#14 Fgdsfg

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:48 AM

 

Well if you incorporate the variable setting rule from BC/OW lasweapons become a lot more impressive.

 

If I had either of those sourcebooks I imagine I would, because as it stands it becomes almost silly how worthless the things are. I know that the Imperial Guard like the WW2 armies it's proimarily based upon inflicts about 70% of it's kills with artillery, bombings and tanks and unlike those armies it has to constantly fight terrifying space monsters but at the same time the lasgun as it's lsted in the RT rules sucks so much that even a super lucky shot could never kill an Ork or an Eldar anyway.

 

 

A single shot, no, that would be unlikely; 100 shots, though, a thousand, ten thousand?


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#15 Magellan

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:55 AM

May I recommend that you take a look at the Horde rules from BC? They are pretty brilliant in their simplicity, I think, although they interact somewhat strangely with certain attacks.


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#16 Amazing Larry

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:17 PM

 

A single shot, no, that would be unlikely; 100 shots, though, a thousand, ten thousand?

 

 

Per the RT combat rules is seems like not even then, since every hit is counted individually against armor and toughness. Now realisitcally the armor would melt or something while getting shot five hundred hundred times in two minutes but there aren't any rules for that written in the RT book. So apparently there are in some of the other books but I don't have those.



#17 Fgdsfg

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:13 AM

 

 

A single shot, no, that would be unlikely; 100 shots, though, a thousand, ten thousand?

 

 

Per the RT combat rules is seems like not even then, since every hit is counted individually against armor and toughness. Now realisitcally the armor would melt or something while getting shot five hundred hundred times in two minutes but there aren't any rules for that written in the RT book. So apparently there are in some of the other books but I don't have those.

 

RT lacks any rules at all at that scale, and the individual weapon profiles obviously don't scale that well. Fluff influencing statlines and those statlines then not performing admirably is.. sometimes a problem. No way around it that I can think of, but.. yeah.


Real men earn their fun

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Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#18 Magellan

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 01:43 PM

RT lacks any rules at all at that scale, and the individual weapon profiles obviously don't scale that well. Fluff influencing statlines and those statlines then not performing admirably is.. sometimes a problem. No way around it that I can think of, but.. yeah.

Hissssss... Horde rules.


I am the latest model of a Fabricator-General
My body isn't nearly as much animal as mineral
My learnedness is legend; my accomplishments historical
For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#19 Fgdsfg

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 02:16 PM

 

RT lacks any rules at all at that scale, and the individual weapon profiles obviously don't scale that well. Fluff influencing statlines and those statlines then not performing admirably is.. sometimes a problem. No way around it that I can think of, but.. yeah.

Hissssss... Horde rules.

 

I'm actually not a huge fan of the Horde Rules in BC, but since I can't suggest anything better and that it's better than nothing - yeah, Horde Rules!

Rogue Trader really should have them itself, though. Sometimes, FFG seems a bit inconsistent. On one hand, it seems like they vehemently oppose the creation of a unified ruleset of any kind, but on the other hand, what they publish seems to be with the base assumption that players will cross-pollinate.

Rogue Trader openly deals with things on a Macro-level, yet Horde Rules have never been published for Rogue Trader (unless I'm just straight-up lying right now and have completely forgotten about it due to running on BC Horde Rules anyway). Likewise, both Deathwatch and Black Crusade have clear rules for the creation of Minions and Companions as attachments to Player Characters, yet the Comrades in Only War are kept incredibly vague and undefined.

Sometimes, things like this are just.. odd.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#20 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:56 PM

Minions and Comrades serve different functions.

 

Comrades are a mechanism to have a 10-man squad while a) having half the number of players and b) still making the PCs completely central.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 23 December 2013 - 05:47 PM.





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