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#41 Simsum

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 04:05 PM

The so-called Waaagh!-field is a more tricky topic. I've taken a stroll through the Codex and the TT rulebooks, but could indeed not locate a specific mention of Orks making their gear work by sheer power of belief. It may indeed seem as if this is just one of the many "urban legends" within the community - personal opinion that, for whatever reason, has become so widely accepted that it is nowadays often presented as universal fact, just like with the myth about 40k canon, the oft-exaggerated body height of the Space Marines, or the Adeptus Mechanicus merely being an ally and an equal partner of the Imperium rather than a fully integrated part of it, to name just a few.


Seems I never actually read the first page of this topic.

Orks making stuff work because they believe it will, is not an urban legend, as you call it. The concept has been around since the first edition of the wargame, but with third edition the fluff explicitly said that it wasn't simply an Orc belief that various things worked better if they wanted them to. Orc weapons officially became fuelled by faith, to the extent that other races couldn't make their tech or tools work. It crept right into the rules as the explanation for why Choppas were so very good at carving up Marines, and for why a red paintjob really did make stuff go fasta as long as an Orc was driving.

If there's an urban legend here, it's that 40K Orcs aren't even more faith-powered than 40K RPG Bondage Nuns.

As for the AdMech, I'd have to go on a fluff-expedition to be certain, but I'm fairly sure it's been described as a wholly independent empire within the empire on at least a couple of occasions. I am, however, also fairly sure it's been described as something akin to a "home rule" situation pretty consistently since always. The fluff about the AdMech having a civil war ending with their formal recognition of The Corpse With No Name as their god incarnate, and them being integrated into the newly minted Imperium isn't exactly new.

... I guess my point is there's probably no such thing as 40K urban legends. It's just that the fluff can be very inconsistent, and has changed a great deal over the years.

#42 Lynata

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 05:27 PM

Orks making stuff work because they believe it will, is not an urban legend, as you call it. The concept has been around since the first edition of the wargame, but with third edition the fluff explicitly said that it wasn't simply an Orc belief that various things worked better if they wanted them to. Orc weapons officially became fuelled by faith, to the extent that other races couldn't make their tech or tools work.

 

But ... where? Can you point me to a specific Codex that actually says this? That's what I've been saying - I took it at face value because everybody said this. But now that I've tried to confirm this I cannot find any mention of it in GW's books. If I haven't looked hard enough, I'd certainly appreciate any pointers, as I've decided to make my personal interpretation of the setting dependent on what the core studio publishes.

 

And with urban legends I am referring to "accepted truths" where an entire community, or at least the vocal majority, has subscribed to and propagates a very specific idea as gospel. Like when I've been told that "everything is canon". Or when you've got people saying "Marines are 9 feet high" and not even accept the existence of contradicting material.

Word of mouth is very strong in this franchise, specifically because it is so inconsistent between the various origins.



#43 Askil

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 02:34 AM

The belief-magic thing is actually just an in-universe theory by an admech adept from a one off fluff piece.

 

The jist of the article is tht invents a supernatural reason for why Ork tech works when all his indoctrinated ritualistic understaning says it shouldn`t work. Basically he couldn`t grsp why the machine spirit put up with such abuse. (The reason being that it doesn`t exist.)

 

Basically he claims "wizards did it" because his religion can`t explain it... like fossils and dinosaurs.


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#44 lord inquisitor Iannise

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:40 AM

The belief-magic thing is actually just an in-universe theory by an admech adept from a one off fluff piece.

 

The jist of the article is tht invents a supernatural reason for why Ork tech works when all his indoctrinated ritualistic understaning says it shouldn`t work. Basically he couldn`t grsp why the machine spirit put up with such abuse. (The reason being that it doesn`t exist.)

 

Basically he claims  because his religion can`t explain it... like fossils and dinosaurs.

In warhammer 40k "a wizards did it" is not only a valid theory, but the most probable one. :D  


Edited by lord inquisitor Iannise, 30 November 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#45 lord inquisitor Iannise

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:41 AM

How do i fix's that? 

 

 


Edited by lord inquisitor Iannise, 30 November 2013 - 08:41 AM.


#46 Lynata

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:08 PM

The forum and some browsers are sensitive to words being copied from other websites or documents, attempting to replicate the original formatting. I recommend pasting the text into Notepad first, and then copying that and paste it into the forums.

 

Notepad basically "purges" any formatting attached to whatever you have copypasted. ;)


Edited by Lynata, 30 November 2013 - 04:08 PM.


#47 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:37 PM

The forum and some browsers are sensitive to words being copied from other websites or documents, attempting to replicate the original formatting. I recommend pasting the text into Notepad first, and then copying that and paste it into the forums.

 

Notepad basically "purges" any formatting attached to whatever you have copypasted. ;)

You can also go to the upper right of the reply window, and press Options.

There's an option for "Paste as plain text as default".

That said, I usually go with the notepad or browser address field solution. :D


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#48 Darth Smeg

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:52 PM

I usually purge my paste as it is being processed. And if that doesn't work, I paste my processed into the purge.

 

And if that still doesn't work, I distill the essence of my creation into my excretion,  and then ask for seconds.

 

And then I usually pass out, drunk and wasted. Good night!


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#49 Simsum

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:02 PM

But ... where? Can you point me to a specific Codex that actually says this? That's what I've been saying - I took it at face value because everybody said this. But now that I've tried to confirm this I cannot find any mention of it in GW's books. If I haven't looked hard enough, I'd certainly appreciate any pointers, as I've decided to make my personal interpretation of the setting dependent on what the core studio publishes.


The Wargear section of the 3e Codex: Orks, as well as the last two fluff pieces in the same codex.
 

And with urban legends I am referring to "accepted truths" where an entire community, or at least the vocal majority, has subscribed to and propagates a very specific idea as gospel. Like when I've been told that "everything is canon". Or when you've got people saying "Marines are 9 feet high" and not even accept the existence of contradicting material.
Word of mouth is very strong in this franchise, specifically because it is so inconsistent between the various origins.


My point was that those beliefs tend to come from somewhere. Orks fuelling everything with magic, for example, isn't something fans dreamt up. It's been canon since Orks got psykers. Though it wasn't until the drastic redesign of Orks in 3e, that Ork magic started affecting everything.

I have no idea where the 9ft Marines come from, but I'd be entirely unsurprised if it came from GW.

And the "everything is canon" thing does come from GW. It's been the official word on what's canon and what isn't since... Probably since 2e I think.
 

How do i fix's that?


The two first buttons in the top left corner of the reply window are:

1. A button letting you view the reply box unformatted. The button looks like an oldschool electric switch.
2. A button letting you erase the formatting of anything you have hilighted in the reply box. The button looks like a pencil eraser.

The first button lets you manually edit formatting as you please. The second removes formatting for you.


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#50 Lynata

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:23 PM

The Wargear section of the 3e Codex: Orks, as well as the last two fluff pieces in the same codex.

 

Ah, thanks! I'll take a look tomorrow. :)

 

I have no idea where the 9ft Marines come from, but I'd be entirely unsurprised if it came from GW.

 

Black Library novels, where else. :P Specifically, Dan Abnett seems to have a penchant for Ubermarines.

 

Jes Goodwin even jokes on this GW Design Podcast that they "seem to be getting bigger with every book".

 

To me, this is just a lame attempt by some authors to "one-up" each other, because bigger is probably still perceived as better. Even when it starts to get ridiculous (considering that Marines still use an APC designed for normal human colonists).

 

And the "everything is canon" thing does come from GW. It's been the official word on what's canon and what isn't since... Probably since 2e I think.

 

The actual wording is "everything and nothing is true". It just gets distorted and misquoted a lot - hence my newfound scepticism on just believing everything merely because it was posted on some forum, and nobody objected.

 

I actually went around to hunt for real quotes, only to discover that they contradicted a lot of what I've been told by other fans: http://www.dakkadakk...96.page#4527011

 

Of course those beliefs you mentioned come from somewhere - the problem is that word of mouth and bad memory often distort the original statement - that was my point.


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#51 Simsum

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:38 AM

Ah, thanks! I'll take a look tomorrow. :)


Don't be so quick to thank me. The 3e Codex: Orks is the worst thing GW has ever published.
 

Black Library novels, where else. :P Specifically, Dan Abnett seems to have a penchant for Ubermarines.


I knew there was a reason I don't read those things :D

- And I stand corrected on the quote thing, though I'd suggest the latter kind of inevitably follows from the former given the contradictory nature of the fluff.

Also, your point is well taken :)

Good luck with trying to make a studio-only setting that hangs together. It sounds fun, but I suspect it isn't quite possible to do. It's not just the freelance fluff-writers who contradict studio fluff.

#52 lord inquisitor Iannise

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:27 AM

 

 


Orks making stuff work because they believe it will, is not an urban legend, as you call it. The concept has been around since the first edition of the wargame, but with third edition the fluff explicitly said that it wasn't simply an Orc belief that various things worked better if they wanted them to. Orc weapons officially became fuelled by faith, to the extent that other races couldn't make their tech or tools work.

But ... where? Can you point me to a specific Codex that actually says this? That's what I've been saying - I took it at face value because everybody said this. But now that I've tried to confirm this I cannot find any mention of it in GW's books. If I haven't looked hard enough, I'd certainly appreciate any pointers, as I've decided to make my personal interpretation of the setting dependent on what the core studio publishes.

 

And with urban legends I am referring to "accepted truths" where an entire community, or at least the vocal majority, has subscribed to and propagates a very specific idea as gospel. Like when I've been told that "everything is canon". Or when you've got people saying "Marines are 9 feet high" and not even accept the existence of contradicting material.

Word of mouth is very strong in this franchise, specifically because it is so inconsistent between the various origins.

 

Doesn't it say some were that astartes don't stop growing and that 7 feet is just a starting height?



#53 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 08:57 AM

 

Orks making stuff work because they believe it will, is not an urban legend, as you call it. The concept has been around since the first edition of the wargame, but with third edition the fluff explicitly said that it wasn't simply an Orc belief that various things worked better if they wanted them to. Orc weapons officially became fuelled by faith, to the extent that other races couldn't make their tech or tools work.

 

But ... where? Can you point me to a specific Codex that actually says this? That's what I've been saying - I took it at face value because everybody said this. But now that I've tried to confirm this I cannot find any mention of it in GW's books. If I haven't looked hard enough, I'd certainly appreciate any pointers, as I've decided to make my personal interpretation of the setting dependent on what the core studio publishes.

 

And with urban legends I am referring to "accepted truths" where an entire community, or at least the vocal majority, has subscribed to and propagates a very specific idea as gospel. Like when I've been told that "everything is canon". Or when you've got people saying "Marines are 9 feet high" and not even accept the existence of contradicting material.

Word of mouth is very strong in this franchise, specifically because it is so inconsistent between the various origins.

 

GorkaMorka, that's where you'll find "Ork stuff works because Orks think it will work" references.


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#54 Lynata

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 09:58 AM

Good luck with trying to make a studio-only setting that hangs together. It sounds fun, but I suspect it isn't quite possible to do. It's not just the freelance fluff-writers who contradict studio fluff.

 

Quite so, quite so - though I do find the studio fluff much more consistent than the many individual interpretations published in the licensed material. Probably just because it's one big studio whose staff did not change much over a long time ... and because GW is very fond of copypasting texts from older products.  :lol:

 

The more people you have working on a setting, the more likely it is that they bring ideas into it that conflict with something that somebody else wrote. And since GW seems to prefer the muddled "it's all possible" approach rather than Battletech's or Star Wars' clear canon policy, it is all equally valid, and we end up having to cherrypick.

 

Doesn't it say some were that astartes don't stop growing and that 7 feet is just a starting height?

 

Never heard of such a thing - though I wouldn't discount the possibility that some author may have published something like that!

 

Personally, I'd find that highly impractical. Growing out of your armour all the time?

 

GorkaMorka, that's where you'll find "Ork stuff works because Orks think it will work" references.

 

Come to think of it, that is one book I've never had the chance to look at!



#55 Simsum

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:32 AM

Growing out of your armour all the time?


Mental image of the week :D
 

GorkaMorka, that's where you'll find "Ork stuff works because Orks think it will work" references.


Oh right, GorkaMorka totally slipped my mind. Rebel Grots Go! lol

Lynata you need to find a copy of the books somewhere, because it was basically the last bit of Orkoid greatness for the next 10 years.
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#56 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 01:46 PM

Oh right, GorkaMorka totally slipped my mind. Rebel Grots Go! lol


Lynata you need to find a copy of the books somewhere, because it was basically the last bit of Orkoid greatness for the next 10 years.

GorkaMorka was also pre-3rd Ed TT, so...yeah, if that gives you an idea of the fluff development timeline (circa 1996). Great stuff in there about Ork Kulture.


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#57 Simsum

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 02:05 PM

3e... The edition I hated to love. It basically made the rules reasonably playable for the first time, and brought a tiny bit of balance to the table (I still remember the first time my 1500p Bad Moons army got acquainted with a single 2e Virus Grenade on a 4x4' table. And the first time they met a Space Wolf army consisting entirely of 2e Termies with Assault Cannons, Cyclone Launchers and Teleporters - 2e was basically A Game of Cheese).

But it was also the Grimdork Xtr3me edition that threw whole armylists out the window for the next many years/permanently (killed 3 of my armies in one fell stroke, only 1 of which has been patially resurrected), and replaced all the best fluff with the worst the setting had ever seen at that point. And of the armylists that survived, Orks were the ones that suffered the worst kind of retconning into horribleness.

#58 Adeptus-B

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:09 PM

- 2e was basically A Game of Cheese.

 

True that. A friend of mine used to play a 2E 2,000-point 'army' that consisted of 6 CSMs with maximum equipment...



#59 Simsum

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:51 PM

True that. A friend of mine used to play a 2E 2,000-point 'army' that consisted of 6 CSMs with maximum equipment...


I seem to recall that you could take out an army like that in 2 turns with nothing but an equal number of marines with bikes and gravition guns.

... God I hated gravition guns. My poor, poor screamer-killers :P

#60 Routa-maa

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:43 AM

 

Don't be so quick to thank me. The 3e Codex: Orks is the worst thing GW has ever published.
 

Then you haven't yet read about Blood Grey Knights or Newcrons.

 

Although I like Newcrons with their personalities being intact, more or less.

But Blood Angel and Necrons being like this in fluff:

206656_md-BloodAngelsBroFistFistBumpHumo

 

And Blood Grey Knights making party hats and bodypaint out of Sisters of Battle

 

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