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Maintaining the L/C/R card mechanic?


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#1 SFRR

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:24 PM

So it looks like BL2e will maintain the L/C/R card ordering mechanic.  That's too bad, that's a huge flaw IMHO.  BoW solved this very annoying problem and chronic design flaw in the C&C:A/C&C:N games.

 

I had assumed BL2e would employ the same tactical card ordering improvements as BoW...too bad...I won't be buying this game now.


(SFRR) aka Siferr Stark


#2 Darthvegeta800

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 03:29 PM

I love Command and Colors Ancients and I do not find it a flaw in the least.



#3 Light Bright

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 11:38 AM

So it looks like BL2e will maintain the L/C/R card ordering mechanic.  That's too bad, that's a huge flaw IMHO.  BoW solved this very annoying problem and chronic design flaw in the C&C:A/C&C:N games.
 
I had assumed BL2e would employ the same tactical card ordering improvements as BoW...too bad...I won't be buying this game now.


Ahh don't jinx this game I'm hoping this game will be good.

#4 IraShaine1972

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 01:10 PM

I love Command and Colors Ancients and I do not find it a flaw in the least.

 

I own every C&C block product and have owned or played just about all the other games that use the system and I think its a blast.  I like the feeling of playing by the seat of my pants.  In fact I found BoW kinda disapointing and felt that it intruduced unecassary layers to a system that really didnt need it.  To say the C&C system is "flawed" is more a matter of taste.  It is a tremendously popular system that as of now is utilized by about a half dozen games published across multiple publishers.



#5 SFRR

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:30 PM

The L/C/R card mechanic is really just a "gimmicky" / "gamey" way to introduce a new generation of players to tactical level wargames.  Once one has played enough times for the novelty to wear off, one realizes it is not a system where commitment to this system provides any benefit to the player.  The L/C/R card mechanic represents nothing more than "backgammon masquerading as a wargame" with the exception that in backgammon, which is a better game, one can actually evolve and improve one's play over time, the L/C/R games provide very little of that.  Mem'44 can be entertaining, but is absolutely terrible as a wargame, it has zero replay value.  The "C&C's" are really nothing more than crude, sophomoric representations of "pretend" tactical level wargames.

 

BoW fixes the worst, most chronically problematic issues with the "C&C's" (ex, "all of my units are being slaughtered on my left flank by a single enemy red rank unit with a leader...why can't I do anything about it?...oh yeah...I have no 'move left flank units' cards") - I've played over 200+ games in the "C&C's" - it's just a silly, juvenile, waste of time game design.

 

The BoW system is infinitely better.


(SFRR) aka Siferr Stark


#6 IraShaine1972

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 11:02 AM

Well fortunatly you dont have to play games you dont like.  I have known plenty of gamers that dont care for the C&C system.  I have played more games than I can ever remember from the absurdly complicated ASL and SFB to the simplistic C&C.  I for one enjoy simple games that I can pull out and play fast and put away.  I think C&Cs overall record speaks for itself and while you may feel like you are somehow insulting yourself and thereby obligating yourself to insult others because a game is to "sophomoric" there are plenty of us that enjoy the system for what it is.  Is it a great tactical wargame?  Not really but there arent to many that are unless you want to get bogged down in details. 



#7 SFRR

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:19 PM

Well fortunatly you dont have to play games you dont like.  I have known plenty of gamers that dont care for the C&C system.  I have played more games than I can ever remember from the absurdly complicated ASL and SFB to the simplistic C&C.  I for one enjoy simple games that I can pull out and play fast and put away.  I think C&Cs overall record speaks for itself and while you may feel like you are somehow insulting yourself and thereby obligating yourself to insult others because a game is to "sophomoric" there are plenty of us that enjoy the system for what it is.  Is it a great tactical wargame?  Not really but there arent to many that are unless you want to get bogged down in details. 

True enough...and fair enough...as long as YOU like it, that's all that matters.

;)


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#8 kilrah

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:44 AM

So stick to BoW - the game you like?! ;-)

 

'We' waited long enough for a proper true C&C fantasy game. What you adore is exactly what drove me away from BoW. The lack of L/C/R



#9 Varikas

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:21 AM

The L/C/R card mechanic is really just a "gimmicky" / "gamey" way to introduce a new generation of players to tactical level wargames.  Once one has played enough times for the novelty to wear off, one realizes it is not a system where commitment to this system provides any benefit to the player.  The L/C/R card mechanic represents nothing more than "backgammon masquerading as a wargame" with the exception that in backgammon, which is a better game, one can actually evolve and improve one's play over time, the L/C/R games provide very little of that.  Mem'44 can be entertaining, but is absolutely terrible as a wargame, it has zero replay value.  The "C&C's" are really nothing more than crude, sophomoric representations of "pretend" tactical level wargames.

 

BoW fixes the worst, most chronically problematic issues with the "C&C's" (ex, "all of my units are being slaughtered on my left flank by a single enemy red rank unit with a leader...why can't I do anything about it?...oh yeah...I have no 'move left flank units' cards") - I've played over 200+ games in the "C&C's" - it's just a silly, juvenile, waste of time game design.

 

The BoW system is infinitely better.

 

You should know that in BattleLore, you can move a unit even if you dont have the properly command card. In your example, if you dont have "move left flank units" card, you could use one of them to attack that "tank" anyway.



#10 kilrah

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:52 AM


How You should know that in BattleLore, you can move a unit even if you dont have the properly command card. In your example, if you dont have "move left flank units" card, you could use one of them to attack that "tank" anyway.

 

 

How so?



#11 Budgernaut

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 11:15 AM

 

 



How You should know that in BattleLore, you can move a unit even if you dont have the properly command card. In your example, if you dont have "move left flank units" card, you could use one of them to attack that "tank" anyway.

 

How so?

 

Every turn you must play one command card, but after playing a command card, you can choose to follow the instructions on the card, or ignore it and choose any 1 unit and order it instead.

 

Read pg. 6 under the heading "command step."


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#12 kilrah

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 05:37 AM

Ah. I think that one is new in 2nd edition.



#13 drasher25

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:18 AM

 

 

 



How You should know that in BattleLore, you can move a unit even if you dont have the properly command card. In your example, if you dont have "move left flank units" card, you could use one of them to attack that "tank" anyway.

 

How so?

 

Every turn you must play one command card, but after playing a command card, you can choose to follow the instructions on the card, or ignore it and choose any 1 unit and order it instead.

 

Read pg. 6 under the heading "command step."

 

Good catch.  I totally missed that.  They should bold that sentence!


Edited by drasher25, 12 December 2013 - 09:39 AM.


#14 Lord Mykal

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:19 PM

Ok I have played board and wargames for 30+ years and I do enjoy and have purchased the C&C Napoleonics, BoW and BL (plus ALL BL expansions - I love the game!) systems but they are all unique to themselves and its what you enjoy that is important. 

 

However I agree with some of what Kilrah says in that they are NOT tactical games in the true sense of the word but they are tactical if you understand the rule mechanics and play to the system....I always try to keep the option of a L/C/R possibility specifically for the reason of the "tank" unit threat. Whether that be in card (C&C/BL) or in counters (BoW), yes its hard to do sometimes but that's part of the skill and capability to play the game/system, the opponent and his army set up :) .

 

That's where the BoW is, IMHO, a GREAT command and control system that needs to be tweaked only slightly to make an exceptionally good tactical & strategic options game! Its options on counter and command use is great. Biggest issue is the figure loss v strength/moral effects needs attention as a priority - a single figure left from a unit originally 4 figures should NOT maintain the same capability/capacity as its original 4 figures!

 

I have reservations about Terrinoth BL and its future expansions and races so am holding off until there is more info and detail of the games future :ph34r: .


Edited by Lord Mykal, 14 December 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#15 Taeblewalker

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:17 PM

I've always enjoyed the command card mechanics of BL. I'm not sure I like what I've seen about second edition, though, particularly having only three over-sized figures per foot unit. I'm sticking to the original edition of the game, for which I have all the expansions and some customs I've made.



#16 qwertyuiop

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 04:14 PM

The L/C/R card mechanic is really just a "gimmicky" / "gamey" way to introduce a new generation of players to tactical level wargames.  Once one has played enough times for the novelty to wear off, one realizes it is not a system where commitment to this system provides any benefit to the player.  The L/C/R card mechanic represents nothing more than "backgammon masquerading as a wargame" with the exception that in backgammon, which is a better game, one can actually evolve and improve one's play over time, the L/C/R games provide very little of that.  Mem'44 can be entertaining, but is absolutely terrible as a wargame, it has zero replay value.  The "C&C's" are really nothing more than crude, sophomoric representations of "pretend" tactical level wargames.
 
BoW fixes the worst, most chronically problematic issues with the "C&C's" (ex, "all of my units are being slaughtered on my left flank by a single enemy red rank unit with a leader...why can't I do anything about it?...oh yeah...I have no 'move left flank units' cards") - I've played over 200+ games in the "C&C's" - it's just a silly, juvenile, waste of time game design.
 
The BoW system is infinitely better.


If you're going to make assertions that you can't back up, at least try to be civil. No one here takes you seriously.

#17 mulletcheese

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 06:39 AM

Biggest issue is the figure loss v strength/moral effects needs attention as a priority - a single figure left from a unit originally 4 figures should NOT maintain the same capability/capacity as its original 4 figures!

 

One of the optional rules in the BoW FAQ is that units with less than half their original figures lose some strength.



#18 Lord Mykal

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:13 PM

Ok thanks for that about the F&Q as I play with a friends set and was not aware of that. Could be a vast improvement on tactics then :-)



#19 SFRR

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:04 AM

 


If you're going to make assertions that you can't back up, at least try to be civil. No one here takes you seriously.

 

The assertions regarding the game are my opinions, which I am certainly entitled to.  The game, BL2e, is a "thing" - an inanimate object devoid of feelings, so I cannot be "uncivil" towards a "thing" which has no feelings.

 

In any case, if I hurt your feelings or offended you, please accept my regrets.

 

BoW is still a MUCH better game, if played with all of the Optional (eg, Reduced Strength Units, etc) and Advanced Optional Rules.


(SFRR) aka Siferr Stark


#20 qwertyuiop

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:43 AM

My feelings aren't hurt. I just wish you'd make a better argument as to why you think BoW has a better system before laying into 2.0. Maybe an odds comparison of commanding a given unit between the two systems, if you have one.

I've played both games, and I like both games for different reasons. And I like 2.0 better for one reason. I like the d8s in BoW. I like the flexibility they appear to offer in unit command. The game felt deeper than Memoir '44, which was the closest thing comparable for me at the time. I like the GoT theme. I love playing the Lannisters.
I like the speed of play for 2.0. It's fast. Or it should be I like that there are two ways to win, so that if I get stuck with a bad hand of cards, I can still do something to possibly win. I like the lore cards. What I really like is the degree of freedom when deploying units. All these things mitigate any weakness in the LCR system to keep the game competitive. For me, at least.

BoW is a great game, but the set up time and (for my group) longer turns make me want to spend the extra 90 minutes or so and get in a game of War of the Ring. :D




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