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Number of Ship Hard Points too Low?


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#1 Kirdan Kenobi

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:45 PM

Does anyone else feel like the number of hard points ships receive is too low?

Han Solo and Boba Fett modified the heck out of their ships, and both Slave 1 and The Millennium Falcon would have about twice as many hard points used up for upgrades as their respective ships allow for.

Would it be potentially game breaking in any way to allow my party to add whatever modifications seemed feasible? Han's ship had almost every mod in the book.


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#2 HappyDaze

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:17 PM

My first suggestion is that weapons that replace other weapons should not cost hard points. Beyond that, there may be high-end Talents coming for the Outlaw Tech and/or Mechanic that allow them to add additional hard points to vehicles, and advanced vehicle rules may cover adding additional hard points in some manner.


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#3 Diggles

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:30 PM

Sacrifice cargo space for hardpoints


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#4 Krieger22

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:12 PM

As HappyDaze said, there may be additional talents and/or rules in future supplements that cover this. Other than that I'm kind of pleased that players have to choose and prioritize between upgrades rather than being able to get everything for every ship.


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#5 Ghostofman

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:51 PM

Using the existing HP I can get pretty close to the falcon..
Replace the guns with quads 0
Add a missile launcher/s 1
Smuggling compartment 1
Hyperdrive 1
Ion turbine 1
And that still leaves 2hp for other stuff...

I do agree that slave 1 is tougher depending on what mods you think it has at any given time, but since we're talking Fett there's so much legend and so little substance you'll never make everyone happy...

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#6 HappyDaze

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:15 PM

Using the existing HP I can get pretty close to the falcon..
Replace the guns with quads 0
Add a missile launcher/s 1
Smuggling compartment 1
Hyperdrive 1
Ion turbine 1
And that still leaves 2hp for other stuff...

I do agree that slave 1 is tougher depending on what mods you think it has at any given time, but since we're talking Fett there's so much legend and so little substance you'll never make everyone happy...

Considering that the 'other stuff' would be - at the least - both improved armor and reinforced shields, that's already 4 more hard points.  That's already twice what we have left.


Edited by HappyDaze, 14 November 2013 - 07:22 PM.

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#7 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:25 PM

I think right now, the "low" number of Hard Points is intentional, mostly to avert the issues of PCs converting their ships into do-anything gunboats.  Which was a common issue with the d20 versions, particularly Saga Edition, but also D6 as well, though GG6: Tramp Freighters included the chance of mishaps the more you tweaked the ship (unless you were willing to sacrifice huge amounts of cargo space to replace the stock systems with vastly superior versions).

 

I know someone had toyed with converting the GG6 upgrade system to this game, but don't recall who it was or how much progress they actually made on it.  It's something I've looked at as well, particularly the "upgrade existing system but at risk of things going really bad," but it's mostly just in the "interesting notion" stage.


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#8 Mr. Flibble

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:00 PM

Using the existing HP I can get pretty close to the falcon..

 

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#9 Ghostofman

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:50 PM

 

Considering that the 'other stuff' would be - at the least - both improved armor and reinforced shields, that's already 4 more hard points.  That's already twice what we have left.

 

In the past and with previous systems, I would have agreed. Not so readily now.

 

The way this system works, and they way FFG has done things makes me more hesitant to just assume things that haven't really been demonstrated in the films.

 

We know the falcon is fast, we know it can make it to .5, we know it's got quads and a missile launcher (linked missiles or not is a separate and, for this discussion, irrelevant detail), and we know it's got smuggling compartments. And I forgot the repeating blaster last time, but that's still only 1 HP so we got one more to go. But that's really all we know... No one ever mentions (in the films anyway) that the Falcon has upgraded armor, or shields, or really anything else that I can think of.

 

We don't see it take a lot of hits in the films. Some hits from TIEs, which we know is survivable in a stock 1300, minor asteroid collision, also survivable, impact with a Death Star which is probably less an attack and more a Piloting Despair on Lando's part.

 

The only other hit that stands out in my memory is the Star Destroyer hit when exiting the Asteroid Field.

 

Running the numbers from the AoR beta the Star Destroyer is a Sil 8 monster firing a Damage 9 Crit 3 turbolaser at the falcon.

 

So...

Formidable base difficulty

Evasive action for 1 upgrade

We'll assume Han angled deflectors for 2 Setback

Defensive Driving for a third

 

So the gunner was up against a pool of 4 purple, 1 Red, and 3 Black (and that's assuming no Destiny Pts, outstanding advantage/threat ect.)

 

Even assuming the gunners were grouped the chances of them scoring enough successes to do damage is pretty darn small...

 

So unlike previous systems that assumed the Falcon had upgraded armor and shields, in FFG's version... it really doesn't. Which makes sense, the Falcon is a hot-rod, or souped up big rig, not a gunship. Lando uses it as one sure, but if you think about it Endor was also pitched as THE last ditch offensive of the Rebellion, so the Alliance probably had every spaceworthy hunk of metal with a laser in that fight. The Falcon, while not a true gunship, was just close enough and the craft General Calrissian had the most experience behind the stick of and (being a general with the privileges of that rank) chose as his command craft.


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#10 HappyDaze

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:01 PM

I have no evidence that FFG will not follow the mass of EU sources that indicate that the MF has improved armor and shielding.
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#11 Ghostofman

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:33 PM

I have no evidence that FFG will not follow the mass of EU sources that indicate that the MF has improved armor and shielding.

Neither do I. But I also have nothing that says they will, or must, follow EU either.

 

What I do know is using the films as reference and existing rules, you can make your own Falcon and expect it to perform roughly as well as in the films.


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#12 Kirdan Kenobi

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:36 PM

I have no evidence that FFG will not follow the mass of EU sources that indicate that the MF has improved armor and shielding.

 

 

 

Considering that the 'other stuff' would be - at the least - both improved armor and reinforced shields, that's already 4 more hard points.  That's already twice what we have left.

 

In the past and with previous systems, I would have agreed. Not so readily now.

 

The way this system works, and they way FFG has done things makes me more hesitant to just assume things that haven't really been demonstrated in the films.

 

We know the falcon is fast, we know it can make it to .5, we know it's got quads and a missile launcher (linked missiles or not is a separate and, for this discussion, irrelevant detail), and we know it's got smuggling compartments. And I forgot the repeating blaster last time, but that's still only 1 HP so we got one more to go. But that's really all we know... No one ever mentions (in the films anyway) that the Falcon has upgraded armor, or shields, or really anything else that I can think of.

 

We don't see it take a lot of hits in the films. Some hits from TIEs, which we know is survivable in a stock 1300, minor asteroid collision, also survivable, impact with a Death Star which is probably less an attack and more a Piloting Despair on Lando's part.

 

The only other hit that stands out in my memory is the Star Destroyer hit when exiting the Asteroid Field.

 

Running the numbers from the AoR beta the Star Destroyer is a Sil 8 monster firing a Damage 9 Crit 3 turbolaser at the falcon.

 

So...

Formidable base difficulty

Evasive action for 1 upgrade

We'll assume Han angled deflectors for 2 Setback

Defensive Driving for a third

 

So the gunner was up against a pool of 4 purple, 1 Red, and 3 Black (and that's assuming no Destiny Pts, outstanding advantage/threat ect.)

 

Even assuming the gunners were grouped the chances of them scoring enough successes to do damage is pretty darn small...

 

So unlike previous systems that assumed the Falcon had upgraded armor and shields, in FFG's version... it really doesn't. Which makes sense, the Falcon is a hot-rod, or souped up big rig, not a gunship. Lando uses it as one sure, but if you think about it Endor was also pitched as THE last ditch offensive of the Rebellion, so the Alliance probably had every spaceworthy hunk of metal with a laser in that fight. The Falcon, while not a true gunship, was just close enough and the craft General Calrissian had the most experience behind the stick of and (being a general with the privileges of that rank) chose as his command craft.

 

 

Han's ship takes a direct hit in Empire from a turbolaser that's so powerful it knocks his ship to one side, but is absorbed by his shields. Yet you think he just had stock shields based on the movies?

 

I have no evidence that FFG will not follow the mass of EU sources that indicate that the MF has improved armor and shielding.

 

Agreed.


In addition to the improved shields (2), armor (2), the concussion missile launcher (1), the smuggling compartments (1), the hyperdrive (1), the sublight engines (1), he also had powerful sensor jammers (Electronic countermeasures suite) (1), and you could argue he had an advanced targetting array (1). That's 9 or 10 HP.

"The Falcon featured duralloy plating over most of the vital areas of its hull and a sheet of armor plating from the Liquidator aft of the starboard docking arm. In addition, the ship was equipped with a set of advanced Kuat Drive Yards, Novaldex, and Nordoxicon shield generators "liberated" by Solo from the Myomar shipyards. These shield generators provided the Falcon with warship-grade shielding, allowing it to survive laser hits that would destroy an ordinary YT-1300. A set of high-grade sensor suites were tied into the Falcon's over-sized rectenna sensor dish. Powerful sensor jammers also protected the ship in combat." -From Wookieepedia.

I am being persuaded that there is a good reason for the limitation on number of hard points, for balance reasons, but I'd still like it to be possible to add more so that a ship could be truly decked out like the ones in the movies.


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#13 Ghostofman

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:51 PM

 

Han's ship takes a direct hit in Empire from a turbolaser that's so powerful it knocks his ship to one side, but is absorbed by his shields. Yet you think he just had stock shields based on the movies?

 

 

I didn't say the gunner didn't roll a Triumph, and it's possible the gunner got lucky and penetrated. I'm just saying that in FFG's system a YT-1300 can be shot at by a Star Destroyer and, without upgraded shields or armor, do just fine.

 

 

 

"The Falcon featured duralloy plating over most of the vital areas of its hull and a sheet of armor plating from the Liquidator aft of the starboard docking arm. In addition, the ship was equipped with a set of advanced Kuat Drive Yards, Novaldex, and Nordoxicon shield generators "liberated" by Solo from the Myomar shipyards. These shield generators provided the Falcon with warship-grade shielding, allowing it to survive laser hits that would destroy an ordinary YT-1300. A set of high-grade sensor suites were tied into the Falcon's over-sized rectenna sensor dish. Powerful sensor jammers also protected the ship in combat." -From Wookieepedia.

 

 

Yeah Wookieepedia says that and that's from piles of books and comics, and video games, and holiday specials that not everyone has seen, or read. The films are the thing that's reached everyone, and within the system you can match that, the rest is salt to taste.

 

This actually illustrates my point about the Slave I. I can stat what we've seen it do in the movies using existing rules. But as a beloved fan favorite, there's a lot of people that are always going to want more, more, more. At least the YT-1300 has 6 HP to work with, you try slapping every Fett sponsored EU piece of kit onto a Firespray and you'll make your Falcon's HP deficit look like a minor typo.


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#14 Kirdan Kenobi

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:14 PM

 

This actually illustrates my point about the Slave I. I can stat what we've seen it do in the movies using existing rules. But as a beloved fan favorite, there's a lot of people that are always going to want more, more, more. At least the YT-1300 has 6 HP to work with, you try slapping every Fett sponsored EU piece of kit onto a Firespray and you'll make your Falcon's HP deficit look like a minor typo.

 

 

True this. Slave 1 needs 9 hardpoints by my count for the options available in the book.


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#15 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:27 PM

Keep in mind that when the technician career book comes out, our options for building new and retrofitting for hardpoints will probably be expanded on.
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#16 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

 

I have no evidence that FFG will not follow the mass of EU sources that indicate that the MF has improved armor and shielding.

Neither do I. But I also have nothing that says they will, or must, follow EU either.

 

What I do know is using the films as reference and existing rules, you can make your own Falcon and expect it to perform roughly as well as in the films.

 

And they've shown some instances of bucking the previous EU as well, both in EotE and in AoR.  Stock YT-1300 having two laser cannons to start with instead of one, JumpMaster 5K have a lot less cargo space (which makes a degree of sense), HWK-290 being closer to the size of a starship instead of a light freighter, to say nothing of prices for several ships being notably different than prior RPGs had them listed at.

 

You do present a pretty good argument about the assumption of the Falcon having boosted shields and hull not necessarily being supported by the films (aka highest level of canon).  Those elements may just have been added by a writer wanting to further expound upon why the Falcon was such an awesome ship and how it survived against such overwhelming firepower as a Star Destroyer was presumed to carry.


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#17 Maelora

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:45 AM

Yeah Wookieepedia says that and that's from piles of books and comics, and video games, and holiday specials that not everyone has seen, or read. The films are the thing that's reached everyone, and within the system you can match that, the rest is salt to taste.

 

 

Wookieepedia mostly reads like bad fanfiction from crazy fanboys, patched together from the thousands of conflicting sources that make up the EU.  Everything has to be cooler and more badass than everything else.  Exhibit A: Boba Fett.

 

Going by the movies, you can stat out the Falcon just fine.

 

And I like that hardpoints actually force players to make choices.  My lot skipped on the Hyperdrive upgrade because speed of Hyperdrive has never been important in the games.  But the ship gets in lots of fights.


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#18 Maelora

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:50 AM

 

 

This actually illustrates my point about the Slave I. I can stat what we've seen it do in the movies using existing rules. But as a beloved fan favorite, there's a lot of people that are always going to want more, more, more.

 

 

Mostly because the Fett fanboys want to give his ship the same stats as the Death Star... :)


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#19 Kallabecca

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 06:31 AM

Given the Falcon's notoriously finicky nature, I would suspect that most of her upgrades weren't full system replacements, but augmentations/addons to the already existing systems. So, yes, the Falcon performs beyond the specs for a YT1300, but suffers for it by breaking down when the plot requires the ship to have issues to give the characters a reason to be somewhere (or not be as the case may be).


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#20 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:16 AM

Given the Falcon's notoriously finicky nature, I would suspect that most of her upgrades weren't full system replacements, but augmentations/addons to the already existing systems. So, yes, the Falcon performs beyond the specs for a YT1300, but suffers for it by breaking down when the plot requires the ship to have issues to give the characters a reason to be somewhere (or not be as the case may be).

I believe this was the basis for the modification system in WEG's Galaxy Guide 6: Tramp Freighters.  You could modify the existing systems to get better performance, but at the cost of something going wrong at the worst possible time; and the more extreme the modification, the more likely things were to go wrong and do so in a catastrophic nature.


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