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Virgo's FAQ to FAQ (we need to go deeper).


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#1 Virgo

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:24 AM

I promised to someone on the FFG stream that I would translate Polish addition to FAQ done by me.

 

Imperial Cards

 

Sigmar's Intervention - doesn't work when fulcrum/legend is attacked.

 

Knights of the Blazing Sun - their constant doesn't work when they enter play corrupted (Warpstone Excavation, Pleasure Cults etc.)

 

Warriors of Ulric - their ability works when legend is attacked.

 

Volkmar the Grim - his effect works at the same time as The Unending Horde (active player resolves his constant first).

 

Osterknach Elite - for his action to resolve there have to be both targets present.

 

Rea Arrow Coach - unit moves even if there is no Coach during the resolution.

 

Dwarf Cards

 

Strollaz's banner - action resolves as much as possible even if there are no units in discard or quest in play.

 

High Elves cards

 

Dreamer of Dragons - if the damage he deals to himself is redirected the rest of the action doesn't work because "If it does..." condition isn't fulfilled (the same as  Keeper of the Flame, Lion Chariot of Chrace, Learned Mage).

 

Korhil - if he puts into play an unit with "when this unit attacks" action (Tiranoc Chariot) that unit can trigger its action (the same as Reckless Attack). 

 

Chaos Cards

 

Tainted Well - works only when unit in play is corrupted, not when unit enters play corrupted (the same as Bleeding Wall, Beastman Shaman and Slaanesh Cultist).

 

Xirat'p - can play Epic Spell "Play at the beginning of your turn" (Cacophonic Scream for example) but has to do it in beginning of your turn phase.

 

Orc cards

 

Bash 'Em! - grants additional battlefield phase, not only second after the first.

 

Squig Trackers - action works even if they enter play dead (We'z Bigga!), trigger when this unit enters play is met and the action is put on the chain in the first possible action window.

 

Vallef of Many Eyes:

 

Valley of Many Eyes should be read as "Forced: When a card enters this zone from your hand ..." So the card enters the zone and then you check if it gets destroyed.
 

There is a still mistake in this, because it should be just "Forced: When a card enters this zone" without the from your hand part because this allows Raise Dead/Necromany/End Times and all other play/put into play from deck/discard to skip it. I don't think that was the intention.

 

If Grimgor via Ritual enters a zone with Valley both their forced effects trigger and resolve because they are independent of the source. Valley always gets destroyed and Grimgor sometimes survives.

 

Note that Rip doesn't trigger valley as the development was already in that zone (playing the development itself of course triggers Valely).

 

Why this thing got errata? I realized that its wording is impossible: 

 

If the printed cost of the discarded card is not odd, destroy the just played card.

 

You can't destroy something that is just played, because just played cards are the part of the unfinished action chain, destroyed can only be things already in play. See errata for Asuryan's Cleansing in the the FAQ: "Cancel and discard target unit or support card just played...". Cancel and discard, not destroy.

 
I would be good if FFG decided how exactly they want this support to work and put errata for it in the next FAQ. Mallumo if you're reading this maybe you can get this message across.

 

Wurrzag:

- You can trigger Wurrzag, with no cards on hand, or Ritual with no cards on hand
After triggering Wurrzag's Action:
- If u have a Tactic on hand, you MUST play it (judge can check it, if opponent want to, when you declare, that you don't have any)
- If u don't have a Tactic, u don't play it ((judge can check for that if opponent doesn't belive you)

 

Dark Elves cards:

 

Bathe in Blood - sacrifice part works only on your own units.

 

Countermoves - they can't be played in response to tactics played during the resolution of the action chain (for example via Wurrzag's action).

 

Captured Mind - you can't lower printed cost of card played this way.

 

Neutral Cards:

 

Order in Chaos - The player would put the top card of their discard on top of their deck first, then the next card at the top of their discard.

 

Heroic Taks - card attached to it is in play so can be affected by some cards (sacrificed by Beastman Incursion for example). The same goes with cards attached as experience.

 

Miscellaneous

 

Neutral cards have 0 loyalty.

 

In the FAQ in the Updated Turn Sequence Diagram there is a mistake  w Phase 1 Kingdom Phase instead Active player may restore one corrupt unit it should be as in the instrucion Active player may restore one corrupt card.

 

All cancel/redirect next 1/2/3...damage references on the cards don't stack (You can't cancel next 20 damage with Drakenhof Castle).

 

There are some tactics from corruption cycle where sacrifice isn't a cost (Brutal Offering, Offering of Blood, Lash the Prisoner!, Blessings of Tzeentch)

 

 

That's all folks, I skipped some obvious (at least for me  :lol: ) things from here:

 

http://whinvasion.pl....php?f=4&t=2966

 

But card names are in English so if you want to know about some listed cards that I didn't translate just ask.

 

Still this case remains unresolved:

 

http://community.fan...umo-rai-vs-raw/

 

I wrote an email to Brad, earlier I got answer for one thing, but didn't get one for this (Poles and their problems  :D )

 

Also one funny bit from FAQ:

 

39 Church of Sigmar

This effect applies to all units a player controls (in play, out of play, and entering play) since the Church of Sigmar modifies the opponent and not the units themselves.

 

which may suggest that cards in discard pile are under player's control which of course isn't true ;)


Edited by Virgo, 10 November 2013 - 09:35 AM.

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#2 Gnomeschool

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 10:35 AM


Vallef of Many Eyes:

 

Valley of Many Eyes should be read as "Forced: When a card enters this zone from your hand ..." So the card enters the zone and then you check if it gets destroyed.
 

There is a still mistake in this, because it should be just "Forced: When a card enters this zone" without the from your hand part because this allows Raise Dead/Necromany/End Times and all other play/put into play from deck/discard to skip it. I don't think that was the intention.

 

The last part isn't official, is it?

Personally I think that it's okay, when units enter this zone that way without triggering the valley. I rather think the card would be too dangerous against Empire with your version, especially with Willhelm seeing more play now.
(That card will be fun in multiplayer, if any opponent is playing VthC! x))

 

I have some unanswered quesions too.

For example what happens, if you sacrifice 3 developments for a tunnelfighter but your opponent has the dwarf adventurer.

 

The Church of Sigmar is kind of funny in multiplayer too... you could understand its text like any opponent could pay for the effects of other players targeting a unit. Cause it reads "...unless they pay...".

But ... yeah. Play that game as it is meant to be (as long as you're know). ;)

 

And there is a mistake with either Osterknacht Elite or Red Arrow Coach, I think.

If the word "and" on Osterknacht Elite leads to cancelling that effect because not both referring parts of that "and" are there anymore, then it should be the same with Red arrow Coach or the other way around.

Because I knew that rule from Osterknacht Elite, I've always played it that way.


Edited by Gnomeschool, 10 November 2013 - 10:48 AM.


#3 Virgo

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 10:58 AM

The part where I write about mistake? No, it isn't official.

Good point about Wilhelm, didn't think about it.

 

1 Sacrficing developments only lowers the printed cost to zero so it would cost 1.

 


2 and word was the question of my first mail to Brad:

 

Rule Question:
The word "and" on cards:

1 Osterknacht Elite - Action: When this unit enters play, return another target unit you control and target unit an opponent controls to their ownerâ?Ts hands.

If one of the targets is missing during the resolve of the action chain does the effect of the action is cancelled or the action tries to resolve as much as possible and works for the only target left? Generally in this example are there two effects or is this one effect with two targets that requires both of them during the resolution?

2 Strollaz's Banner - Attach to a target [Dwarf] unit you control. Quest. Action: When a unit enters this zone, shuffle the top unit in your discard pile back into your deck and put 1 resource token on a quest you control.

Can you add tokens ont the quest even if there is no unit on the discard pile? Or can you shuffle units into deck even if there is no quest under your control?

3 Red Arrow Coach
Action: Spend 1 resource to move this card and target unit in this zone to another zone you control. That unit may then move onto a quest, if able. (Limit once per turn.)

What happens if the Coach itself is missing during the resolve of the action chain (was destroyed by Pillage in response for example)? Does the effect is independent of the source and only the unit is moved or the effect requires both cards to be moved ("move this card and target unit") and is cancelled if the Coach is missing?

Thanks

 

1. This is one effect that targets two units. Both need to be around for the effect to resolve.
2. There are no targets used with this ability so in this case the effect will do as much as it can, either shuffling in the top unit into the deck or putting a resource on a quest.
3. The unit will still move. The effect is independent of the card and all targets (just the targeted unit) are still around when the effect does resolve.



#4 Gnomeschool

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

Hmmm. So, for the word "and" it is important, if its referred cards are targeted by the effect or not? That is the only difference I see, even with answer from Brad. Personally I don't think it's right or at least not good that way.

Invasion does have enough tricky rules even without this one. ;)

 

Thanks for answering that tunnelfighter thing. I assumed that, but wasn't sure...



#5 Virgo

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 11:20 AM

Actually Tunnel Fighter question is one of the untranslated ones  :P

 

Also remember you're only lowering printed cost, not loyalty cost (the same case with Runefang of Solland).



#6 Gnomeschool

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:28 AM

Okay, Mallumo explained me that thing with Osterknacht Elite and Red Arrow Coach (I still think it isn't good that way, because it isn't intuitive).

 

There is another thing that I think is wrong: Squig trackers.

 

Of course, the trigger condition fulfils. No question about that.

The thing is, that you can't use its action, because the card is at the discard pile at that moment:

 

- Player A plays Squiq Tracker.

- Squig tracker enters play. --> This is where the trigger condition is met.

- Squig tracker leaves play.

- Player B may declare an action.

- Player A may declare an action. --> This is where you could use the action, if the card was in play.



#7 Virgo

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:27 AM

B. Action Window

1. Players take turns putting Triggered Actions that have met their trigger condition since the last Action Window on a chain, starting with the first player (the Triggered Actions also must have met their trigger condition this turn)

 

Nowhere it says that the action's source have to be present to put action on the chain.



#8 Gnomeschool

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:42 AM

"In order to trigger an action on
a unit, support, or quest card, the card on which the
action is printed must be in play, unless the action
specifies that it can be triggered from an out of play
state."

 

Rulebook, page 15.

 

(Strictly speaking, that means that at the moment you may use actions on a legend that isn't in play too.)


Edited by Gnomeschool, 13 November 2013 - 08:06 AM.


#9 Virgo

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:12 PM

Unit is in play when the moment for triggering action comes, trigger happens and then you put it on the chain in the first available action window despite unit being gone.



#10 Gnomeschool

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:13 PM

you put it on the chain in the first available action window despite unit being gone.

 

This is exactly where I have my doubts. I just don't see any passage that allows you to put that action on the chain when this unit isn't in play.

 

Though, you're maybe right and this is what it is intended to be.

I think this is similare to the "When this unit leaves play..."-actions. These actions are actually taken after the unit left play, too...



#11 cparadis

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:54 PM

Gnomeschool I think your original interpretation is correct. The unit must be in play when you trigger the action (per the rules). When the unit leaves play effects perhaps fall into the "triggered from an out of play state" exception.

#12 Virgo

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:14 PM

Example:

A: have mining tunnels

B: pillage at tunnels 

A: dance to loec in response

During the resolution of action chain development is played. But there is no room for new actions during the resolution so you put it on the chain in the first action window. Despite tunnels being destroyed.


Edited by Virgo, 14 November 2013 - 05:00 PM.


#13 cparadis

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:11 PM

Isn't that a direct contradiction of the rule cited by Gnomeschool?

 

In order to trigger an action on a unit, support, or quest card, the card on which the action is printed must be in play, unless the action specifies that it can be triggered from an out of play state. (p. 15 of the English language rulebook.)

 

In that case, mining tunnels is not in play when you want to trigger the action, so you cannot trigger the action.



#14 Virgo

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:26 AM

I believe that rule prevents triggering Lobber Crews in discard pile etc.

 

Mining Tunnels are in play when trigger happens.

 

By your logic rule quoted by me has no purpose because if trigger happens and and you can't put it on the chain the action can't be triggered later (because later, after the resolution of the chain, there isn't any trigger). Either the games remembers all the triggers or none.



#15 cparadis

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:46 AM

Virgo, you raise some great questions!

I don't think it is fair to say that the game either remembers all triggers or none. That idea really isn't supported anywhere that I can see. Certianly, that could be the case, but it also could be the case that the game remembers all triggers that can be activated by non-tactic cards in play.

Also, the rule does not say, In order to trigger an action on a unit, support or quest card, the card on which the action is printed must be in play AT THE TIME OF THE TRIGGER, but rather just that they must be in play.

The rule you quote is also very interesting, for you are correct that obviously it must mean something, but what does it mean? I don't think, we can just choose to ignore the plain text of the rule requiring cards to be in play in order to trigger an action, but the rule you quote also needs to have some teeth. I would think that rule means that even though you cannot respond to new triggers in a current chain, if a trigger arises in the chain you can respond to it in the next action window, assuming the card you want to trigger is still in play. SO I wouldn't say the rule has no purpose. Rather it is the rule that allows separate events to trigger in a chain that can then be later responded to. It confines chains to a single trigger.

This is one reason I enjoy this game so much. The rules present some very interesting and thorny puzzles!

#16 Virgo

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 08:31 AM

After card effects are triggered (usually by paying a cost or meeting a timing requirement and declaring its use), they exist independently of the source. Destruction or removal of the source at that time will not affect the resolution on the card effect.

 

You don't trigger those actions after the resolution of the action chain, you put them on it because they were already triggered, just couldn't be added to the already resolving one.

 

In this game effects are always independent of the source.


Edited by Virgo, 15 November 2013 - 08:32 AM.


#17 cparadis

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:16 PM

I get that that is what you think, I just don't see how the rules allow for that. It seems clear that that would allow a player to trigger an action on a non-tactic card that was not in play, which the rules say is not allowed.

I think this would be nice for some guidance from FFG, because I definitely see what you are saying. It has a lot of intuitive appeal.

Edited by cparadis, 15 November 2013 - 12:26 PM.


#18 Virgo

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:11 PM

My last rules lawyering 5 cents  :lol:

 

"In order to trigger an action on
a unit, support, or quest card, the card on which the
action is printed must be in play, unless the action
specifies that it can be triggered from an out of play
state."

 

"In order to trigger."

 

B. Action Window

1. Players take turns putting Triggered Actions that have met their trigger condition since the last Action Window on a chain, starting with the first player (the Triggered Actions also must have met their trigger condition this turn)

 

"Put on the chain"

 

Action was triggered when the card was still in play, there was just no action window then to put it on the chain, that is way you're putting it on the chain after resolution.

 

 How's that cparadis? :P



#19 cparadis

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:46 PM

Looks pretty good to me! At the very least it gives me a lot to think about.

#20 Tomdidiot

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:44 PM

Thanks for posting this - I think it was me you promised the FAQ to! XD






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