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Horned Rat's Dial -- Free Figures Go Anywhere, or Normal Rules?


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#1 NidoKing

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:53 AM

Hi, I tried to find this in the rules/FAQ/prior discusisons but could not, so any help is appreciated!

 

The Horned Rat dial has some ticks that allow him to summon figures upon ticking. For example, "Summon 1 Cultist".

 

Does he have to place this figure under normal placement rules (occupied or adjacent location), or can he place this figure anywhere?

 

Thank you.



#2 sepayne7l

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:59 PM

I would assume normal placement rules, unless it says otherwise.



#3 Prepare for War

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 03:44 AM

This is interesting: our group have always played that when you summon from an effect (e.g. Greyseer, dial advances, or from the Bloodthirster upgrade in Shadows of the Horned Rat) you don't have to obey adjacency rules. However we've got no justification for this.

 

Anyone able to offer rules clarification based on something official?



#4 Prepare for War

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 10:02 AM

Damn, the more I look at this, the more implications it has.

 

A commonly stated counter to Khorne is to Warp Portal or Teleport his first mini up to one corner of the board. This doesn't work if Warp Portal and Teleport have to obey adjacency rules. Convocation becomes near useless as well, if it demands adjacency.

 

Pg11 seems to clearly state that move, place and summon are the same thing (though replace isn't, according to the FAQ, so bolt of change is fine).

 

Forcing adjacency rules onto summons and moves from other effects really weakens Skaven and Tzeentch...



#5 NidoKing

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 11:43 PM

Thanks for the replies.

 

Prepare for War, I would assume that Teleport is in the clear because it specifically says "to any region." Rules on cards always override rulebook rules.

 

Likewise, Greyseer instructs you to summon "to this region", so it sohuld override game rules.

 

However, most people naturally assume that when a card or effect says "Summon", you don't have to spend power points for it. And we all know that that is the way the game is intended to be played, even if the rules don't necessarily explicitly say that. I'm sure that no one expects that the Horned Rat's "Summon X Cultist" effect would need to be paid for. So basically, there is precedent for "summoning normally during summoning phase" to be different from "summon because of effect"

 

Stuff like this does lead me personally to the interpretation that "Summon X Cultist" would also ignore all adjacency rules, costs, etc. but in this case the intent is less clear I think than it is in the cards, which played to specific regions or say things like "any location". I've talked to other experienced players about this and an agreement has not been reached, so I was hoping there was an official ruling out there. Sometimes someone emails FFG and gets a private response that isn't already published in the FAQ, so that's what I'm hoping for (I haven't received a response on this through the official support channel) 


Edited by NidoKing, 21 December 2013 - 11:46 PM.


#6 Prepare for War

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:44 AM

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

 

I'm wondering if the phase in which something is summoned affects its rules. My inclination right now is to say that specific effects over-rule general rules like summoning restrictions, so Greyseer is okay, but in the case of the dial advance summon, because (as you say) it doesn't say "anywhere" you're limited to normal placement rules.

 

Also of interest, and related, is whether moving a bunch of Skaven in the corruption phase (via their upgrade moving them on ruination, or via Skitterleap moving them on domination) trigger / interact with "if opponent summons a figure to this region" effects.

 

I'm thinking specifically Field of Ecstacy, and two cards I can't remember the name of: the Nurgle one that gives VP for each summon, and the Tzeentch one that charges extra power for the summon, and the Khorne card Hate.

 

The Field of Ecstacy seems straightforward - Slaanesh gains a pile of Power but can't spend it because its not the summoning phase.

 

The Nurgle one seems straightforward too - Nurgle gains a load of VP.

 

Hate, I would say, would prevent Skitterleaping, as it prevents being summoned away, and movement is summoning.

 

The Tzeentch one is trickier - would the Skaven player really have to keep Power spare to be able to Skitterleap into that region?

 

Part of me wishes that FFG had said that only "summon" counts as summoning, and had move and place mean what they sound like - moving and placing figures without summoning.



#7 NidoKing

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:26 AM

Wow, that's a really damn good point about the rat's underground empire upgrade and skitterleap interaction with Nurgle's Quicken Decay. I think using the rules as written Nurgle would indeed be eligible for a boatload of VP! That's HUGE. Never thought of that.






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