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#1 wyrm187

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

I've played warhammer invasion and lotr lcg since they've come out. There isn t too much of a competitive scene in the US for WI but there is a competitive scene. So with that being said FFG has made a banned card list and restricted list to break up OP card combos. For those that don't know, Banned cards are obviously excluded from decks in tournament play and restricted cards can not be played with other cards on the restricted list, in the same deck. This has been a fairly good solution to break up card combinations that break the game and it has worked pretty well so far.

As far as I know there really isn't a competitive scene at all for lotr but I know there are several decks (outlands) that are OP and for me and some others it makes the game no challenge and not very enjoyable. I have enough self control not to play an Outlands deck and I don't because it isn't fun for me.

My question is , would you like FFG to release a restricted list or banned list in the future as a guideline to keeping the game more challenging? I for one don't think it's a necessity because I have self control and like making unorthodox decks and thematic ones. I would like it though to increase difficulty and give me tougher guidelines on deckbuilding. Even though I don't play competitively in WI my friends and I still follow the restricted list when deck building to keep one deck from dominating.

If you would like to see a restricted list , what cards could you see being on it? Thanks

Edited by wyrm187, 06 November 2013 - 11:31 AM.

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#2 richsabre

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:00 PM

i also would not want to see this.

 

firstly it would be hard to say which to ban....i mean take outlands- you would have to ban the whole race meaning that ffg would have made an entire race errated (in essence that is). ...and outlands is one of those races that depends on pretty much all of the cards, so banning one or two would almost have the same effect as banning all of them....to put that another way, outlands isnt powerful because of one or two cards (glorfindel etc.) but because of their very race mechanic....ie the stat boosts

 

secondly from my experience with the main amount of players, at least on this forum, most find it very difficult already...i know that said players wouldnt even need to look at a banned list, but some perhaps would feel obliged to carry them out to feel like they had achieved a true victory

 

i wouldnt particulary mind if ffg did do a list as i never compete, even in player tournaments, and i know some would want this, but i feel nightmare/easy mode is ffg's way of dealing with the difficulty problems and i think its much better

rich


Edited by richsabre, 06 November 2013 - 12:03 PM.

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#3 Distractionbeast

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:04 PM

I don't play competitively, so I can't comment about that, but I don't see any reason to restrict cards for cooperative play.  That's the beauty of co-op (or solo) play - you play the way you want to create the experience you want.  You're not screwing anyone else over by playing OP decks.  That's the main reason to restrict in other card games. 

 

Encounter decks have no ego to bruise. 



#4 CaffeineAddict

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:09 PM

I don't think we need a banned/restricted list, this isn't a competitive game.

 

If it was, I could understand having a banned/restricted list so that every player didn't need to play one of a few power decks to have a chance (MTG comes to mind), but with a game like this it's up the individual players.

 

I've been disappointed with the challenge of recent quests, but that's largely because I can pick up a deck built to play a different cycle and win without needing to consider different deck building strategies.

 

I think this requires two fixes:

1. Create quest mechanics that scale better with the number of players.

2. Create quest mechanics that cause some unique challenges for each quests - it doesn't necessarily have to be a really hard quest (though they are my favourites), just different enough that it requires some thought to the deck going in.

 

I liked the Black Riders, not because they were super-hard, but because they were different, and required a bit more thought to play.


Edited by CaffeineAddict, 06 November 2013 - 12:12 PM.


#5 wyrm187

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:14 PM

I think rich is right about nightmare decks adding to the overall challenge. I hope they make nightmare decks for every scenario. I thought it might just be good to have a guideline for broken combos but again I have enough control not to ruin my own experience lol. I am mostly a solo player btw

#6 richsabre

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:17 PM

I think rich is right about nightmare decks adding to the overall challenge. I hope they make nightmare decks for every scenario. I thought it might just be good to have a guideline for broken combos but again I have enough control not to ruin my own experience lol. I am mostly a solo player btw

yes, control over one's own experience makes this game so much better. the nightmare decks are good as i said, though it would of course be even better to get a quest that is completely balanced as it is.....is this even possible? probably not. i think ffg do a great job, but i am not a very 'skillful' player despite my experience. thankfully i get much more than the wins out of the game (a good job it is too!)

 

perhaps the nightmare packs are also a good thing to keep the game even more alive with more sales for ffg.

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#7 Ellareth

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:17 PM

I agree that over powered deck types need to be addressed as it makes the game unchallenging for 'Boromir' type players, but I disagree that solution is banned/restricted lists.

 

Instead I want to see every trait get as powerful as Dwarf traits and jack up the difficulty level on new scenarios and via nightmare mode for old scenarios.

 

I know this kind of power creep could put new players at disadvantage, but if the absolute cap of power is around the Dwarf deck (which is currently too powerful compared to other traits), and if we get one powerful trait in either delux or first adventure pack of a Cycle, and a second powerful trait that slowly emerges over the span of 6 adventure packs of Cycle it should work out; those that want to get into expansion can grab delux + first AP to get a very competetive deck (like what they did with Outlanders), and those who buys all the expansions would still have something to look forward to in player cards if a second trait is developed over time.

 

For example, following this model I think Against the Shadow Cycle could have kept Heirs of Numenor difficulty throughout the packs but give tons of focused Outlands trait in Steward's Fear and have atleast half of next 5 expansion cards focus on Gondor trait.

 

Dwarf decks probably shouldn't be out there when you look at their insane ability to cover most aspects of the game, but they are out there so rather than inching away from making another Dain Ironfoot or restricting We are not Idle / Lure of Moria, let's just crank up every trait to be as powerful as Dwarves as soon as possible and keep the power creep level there, rather than keeping the power creep level well below the Dwarf decks that already exist.


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#8 richsabre

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

Dwarf decks probably shouldn't be out there when you look at their insane ability to cover most aspects of the game, but they are out there so rather than inching away from making another Dain Ironfoot or restricting We are not Idle / Lure of Moria, let's just crank up every trait to be as powerful as Dwarves as soon as possible and keep the power creep level there, rather than keeping the power creep level well below the Dwarf decks that already exist.

this may work but my fear is that we will get far too many power cards and not enough weaker cards from now until the game ends

i actually enjoy the weaker cards more than the more powerful ones.....they give more scope for clever play and theme playing

rich


Edited by richsabre, 06 November 2013 - 12:19 PM.

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#9 Tracker1

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:24 PM

I don't really care if there is a restricted list or not, but I find these are the most powerful cards.

I don't think they need to be restricted, because the future of competitive play for this game seems pretty dismal.

 

1. Steward of Gondor

2. Vilya/Elrond

3. Outlands Trait

4. Dain Ironfoot

5. Glorfindel /Light of Valinor/Asfaloth

6. Frodo spirit Hero and Aragorn Lore combination,

7. Aragorn lore with tactics Boromir.

8. Aragorn Lore  and Gandalf (OHaUH)

9. Unexpected courage (maybe, there are no other cards that provide such consistent action advantage)

10. Sneak attack/Gandalf

11. A Burning Brand this is one of the most ridiculous cards in the game it shuts down all shadow card effect! Almost forgot it.

 

Book of Atanator or whatever it's called, the leadership book one. The recycling of sneak attack can be problematic too but have not tried it.

 

If it did come down to competitive play:

I would say no Outlands, Dwarves, Vilya, Light of Valinor, Aragorn Lore 

 

Interestingly, I am not sure power creep is really happening too much anymore.  Most of the really powerful cards came prior to HoN. Well besides Outlands that is.  But all the other player cards from this cycle are not game breaking.


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#10 richsabre

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:27 PM


If it did come down to competitive play:

I would say no Outlands, Dwarves, Vilya, Light of Valinor, Aragorn Lore 

 

 

i could never go without my dwarves :( .............the best creation of this game so far. but i do agree that they are incredibly powerful (with dain ;) ). but i actually prefer making dwarf decks without him....though that may be because i played the entire dwarrowdelf cycle with him


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#11 wyrm187

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:52 PM

I don't really care if there is a restricted list or not, but I find these are the most powerful cards.
I don't think they need to be restricted, because the future of competitive play for this game seems pretty dismal.
 
1. Steward of Gondor
2. Vilya/Elrond
3. Outlands Trait
4. Dain Ironfoot
5. Glorfindel /Light of Valinor/Asfaloth
6. Frodo spirit Hero and Aragorn Lore combination,
7. Aragorn lore with tactics Boromir.
8. Aragorn Lore  and Gandalf (OHaUH)
9. Unexpected courage (maybe, there are no other cards that provide such consistent action advantage)
10. Sneak attack/Gandalf
11. A Burning Brand this is one of the most ridiculous cards in the game it shuts down all shadow card effect! Almost forgot it.
 
Book of Atanator or whatever it's called, the leadership book one. The recycling of sneak attack can be problematic too but have not tried it.
 
If it did come down to competitive play:
I would say no Outlands, Dwarves, Vilya, Light of Valinor, Aragorn Lore 
 
Interestingly, I am not sure power creep is really happening too much anymore.  Most of the really powerful cards came prior to HoN. Well besides Outlands that is.  But all the other player cards from this cycle are not game breaking.


This was more along the lines I was thinking , put a couple of those cards from outlands deck and dwarf deck on the restricted list so you can't use them together. It doesn't have to be all the cards , but again until the competitive scene evolves , which I don't see happening, there will prob be no list

#12 Tracker1

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:45 PM

If it did come down to competitive play:
I would say no Outlands, Dwarves, Vilya, Light of Valinor, Aragorn Lore

i could never go without my dwarves :( .............the best creation of this game so far. but i do agree that they are incredibly powerful (with dain ;) ). but i actually prefer making dwarf decks without him....though that may be because i played the entire dwarrowdelf cycle with him

I don't think all dwarf decks are overpowered, it only seems to be the case when Dain is in the picture.

All this being said there are still some very challenging scenarios even when a deck is stocked with power cards and combos.
So, in the end it all starts to balance out, and with nightmare packs we will continue to see this.
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#13 Lilian

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:14 AM

a french player post a two-players decks that win almost every quest at the first turn.

The deck use future cards (Voice of Isengard).

 

We organised many competition in France and we didn't use the FFG rules because the players didn't like it.

We have fund alternative but I'll be glad to see Restricted cards for the competive play.



#14 Ana

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:50 AM

I think the Dwarf correction is quite simple. Shaft Dain. They can still do fine without him - or with him not being so powerful. And the main reason I am saying this is because of the deck-building which must be one of the most interesting aspects of the game. And when you are building a Dwarf deck, you would be silly not to include Dain (if you want to win that is). Such cards are wrong, I feel.

 

The bigger problem is the Outlands because, as said above, there is no such one errata solution. Though, actually, if you shaft the Herdsman, you still have a Lore Outlands ally (the Hunter) that is very good, and they all remain fragile at 1 hit point, and will be crushed by certain encounter cards. I think that would be the easiest solution. Though then again, for some crazy reason, we got Men of the West working for Outlands only. It is actually quite disturbing, why is a card named Men of the West working only with the Outlands trait, they were supposed to be inferior, not superior to the Gondorians who are indeed Men of the West, and the heirs of Númenor.

 

As it is, I am refusing to use either Dwarves (as a synergy, not individuals) or Outlands because they just feel absurd.


Edited by Ana, 07 November 2013 - 03:51 AM.


#15 Glaurung

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:37 AM

a french player post a two-players decks that win almost every quest at the first turn.
The deck use future cards (Voice of Isengard).
 
We organised many competition in France and we didn't use the FFG rules because the players didn't like it.
We have fund alternative but I'll be glad to see Restricted cards for the competive play.

really cool to know what kind of competition you done there in France for lotr?
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#16 Tracker1

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:12 AM

a french player post a two-players decks that win almost every quest at the first turn.
The deck use future cards (Voice of Isengard) .


First turn! What kind of broken combo did they use. Can you post a link to the decks, since i have not come across them.

Edited by Tracker1, 07 November 2013 - 05:15 AM.

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#17 Lilian

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:15 AM

I'm not an english speaker so I google translate its post on the french forum :

I come to completely present a subject to you on a deck gives. A deck unbeatable, able to gain 90% of the parts to turn 1. It is a deck which is as a result not very interesting to play but which is instructive when it is studied. It is also a deck which endangers diversity at the time of the tournaments lord of the rings.
This deck of which I speak to you imply to play two cards which did not leave yet and which are in the middle as of current versions. It is about Deep Knowledge and Legacy of Numenor:[img] http://www.fantasyfl...p-knowledge.png [/img] [img] http://www.fantasyfl...-of-numenor.png [/img]

Nevertheless the principle and the effectiveness of the deck are not directly dependent there. The version with the cards left to date are with my best direction the decks current. And without you to make expect the lists currently played more here:
Deck Support

Hero 1: NoriHero 2: BalinHero 3: Beravor_
Event
3 Rune de Daeron
3 We are not lazy
3 History of the corner of fire
3 Legacy of Numenor
3 Deep Knowledge
3 chemin de great step
2 force of the will
2 Gifts of good-bye
2 will of the west
1 Opulence of Lorien
1 Attraction of Moria
1 Out of Nature
1 To risk light
1 To hold and fight
1 to know of imralis
1 Greeting of Galadhrim
1 Corbels of the mountain

Combined
1 Mounting of the riddermark
1 adventurous drum

Attachment
3 love of the history
3 Heritage of Durin
3 Song of Eärendil
3 song of wisdom
3 Song of the Kings
1 Song of the Travel

Deck Combo

Hero 1: OinHero 2: BifurHero 3: Dáin Foot of Steel
Event
3 Rune de Daeron
3 We are not lazy
3 Renewal of force
3 Legacy of Numenor
3 Deep Knowledge
3 furtive attack
3 word of command
2 will of the west
2 Attraction of Moria

Attachment
3 born in altitude
2 song of aerendil
1 horn of the gondor
1 Heritage of Durin

Combined
3 Archivist of Erebor
3 Blacksmith of Erebor
3 minor of the iron mounts
3 minor of zigil
3 Gandalf
1 veteran with the axe
1 Gloin
1 Dwalin

The lists are designed around three axes:
1- To guarantee the most possible starting percentage in combo with turn 1
2- To be able to finish the maximum of normal scenarios (extensions deluxe and cycles) with turn 1.
3- For the only problematic scenario (escape from Fraud Guldur) simply to succeed in gaining it.
4- To try to mark more a large number of points of victories.

These lists are made for the duet. Indeed it is the format of game which I experienced more. These lists are all made exportable to be played 3 or 4 players. With considered decks to optimize to it (or both possibly) games combo that will be only stronger. I on the other hand did not succeed in satisfactorily exporting the model in solo for the moment.
The principle of the deck is to manage to pick all the deck of the player combo. Then one sets up loops. Who allow us to dig again all the deck of the player combo, then of the player support. Who bring back the threat of each player to 0. Who kill all the enemies present concerned. Who explore all the places. Who put as much marker of progression than one wants on the active search. Who purify and sort the deck of meeting. Who look after. In short all is done.
For that it is necessary to give a maximum of resources and to make pick to the maximum the player combo. This one will play all its dwarves, and each time will pick a map thanks to heritage of durin. Once court of resource it has plays we are not lazy and releases all the dwarves thanks to attraction of the moria. Thus he plays all the dwarves of sound deck. That arrives about at the moment or the deck is empty.For more detail on operation of the combo here a small guide:
[spoiler=ordre of priority to follow to optimize its outputs] a) One starts by playing the cards cursed which one picks. Generally as long as that does not make pass a player above 46 threatens one plays the cursed cards as soon as they are picked.b) One continues by playing the other diggers action: history with the corner of fire and Beravor on the player combo, attacks furtive on Gandalf to pick 3. Then rune of daeron while truing what is not essential for the first iteration of the loop (1 will of the west on both, the additional specimens of Gandalf, all cards in a specimen of the deck support). One waits on the other hand to play us sums not lazy and the song of aerendil.c) If the player support has a heritage of durin he plays it on a hero of the game combo.
d) It is necessary to play the loves of the stories. If there is not that one it goes on Bifur. If there is more it is necessary to play of the song of wisdom to attach them on the heroes of the dwarf game before him to give a love of the stories. There is only if it is impossible to play them on the player combo that one attaches one of them on Beravor.e) One plays the song of aerendil of the player combo on the player combo, history which it picks.
f) One passes to the other songs. One tries to give to a hero all the spheres. It is often Oin which takes a song of wisdom and a song of the kings.g) Then it is the turn of the player combo. If it does not have yet a heritage of durin it must play one of them, since it is necessary to going to seek it via word of command.h) One seeks to play the most possible allies dwarf. One picks with each time one picks one of them. Before playing a blacksmith of erebor one returns in our hand gandalf with born in altitude and recovers it born in altitude. Then one plays again Gandalf with furtive attack.i) When the player combo falls has cost of resource his teammate the assistance using we are not lazy and gifts of good-byes.
j) At the time or even those resources are spent he is necessary to have we are not lazy. Before spending the last resource: knowledge: it is necessary thus to use word of command to go to seek it if we did not pick yet about it. One uses this we are not lazy by engaging all the dwarves to add many resources on the dwarf with the most sphere to provision.k) One continues has to play of the allies, has to go up the gandalf and has to go increasingly deep in the deck. One uses attracted moria to take again resources with we are not lazy with the need. [/spoiler]
Arrived at this stage it is necessary to play a will of the west and to begin the loops:
[spoiler=Détail of the loops] a) Horn of Gondor + blacksmith of Erebor + born in altitude + will of the west + we are not lazy + attracted moria. One engages all the dwarves to produce about twenty resources approximately. Then one releases them via attraction of the moria. A will of the west is played. One spends 3 resources to play three times the blacksmith of erebor and to pick 3 cards. One is in an initial state with a profit of 17 resources. One can thus produce resource as much than one wants on all the heroesb) + Gandalf + 2nd born in altitude. One reduces to zero his threat and one kills as much enemy than one wants.c) + two song of aerendil + deep knowledge. One makes pick any sound deck with our ally by taking all the threat, and by repeating the loop b) as soon as necessary to total zero of threat.d) + rune of daeron + adventurous drum + to hold and fight. The deck support plays rune of daeron, trues adventurous drum and brings back it via holding and fighting. Then one passes the drum, recovering each time threat on the player combo. Once the player support is to 0 of threat the player combo makes the loop B again to be it again.e) + will of the west + horse-breaker of the ouestfole. The deck support mixes its trues with its deck, vacuum. Then he plays rune of daeron and trues the horse-breaker. He brings back it with holding and fighting. He can sacrifice it to put 2 markers of progression on a place. And to repeat the operation until eliminating all the places. f) + out of nature + to risk light. Are played they to purify the deck of all the cards without point of victory and which are not objectives. Then one sorts the remaining cards to leave what it interests us more.g) + corbels under the mountain. One puts as many markers of progression one wants on the search in progress. One can thus pass the stages of the search in cascade and gain.h) + to know of imralis. One can all look after, including wilyador to be able to gain travel to rhosgobel.i) + way of great step + force of the will. Necessary only for the scenario feared of the intendant but necessary to finish it with turn 1.j) + opulence of the lorien + greeting of the gahladrim. Necessary to repeat these loops apart from the phase of organization, apart from which one cannot play Gandalf or blacksmith of erebor any more at will. [/spoiler]
Among the 24 classical scenarios available all are succeeded almost at 100% with turn 1, the only possibility of missing being not to leave in combo to turn 1. Only the scenario problems are feared of the intendant or one gains to 80% with turn 1, To flee the moria that one finishes with turn 1 only in 30% of the cases to the first turn and that one finishes on average with turn 3 and escape from Fraud Guldur which one cannot finish turn 1 and or one endeavours to use to the maximum the gandalf to hold and to pass in stage 3 or the restriction of an ally by turn does not hold any more and or one can thus gain easily.The scenarios Print one Demand and Extension of Saga pose more problem. Not to gain but simply to do it with turn 1.
This deck uses many mechanics and cards. Even if the impressive part of the deck is its capacity with systematically gaining turn 1 by not dealing less world with the specificity of the scenario it is not that which makes its effectiveness. To put that it places from there is initially necessary to have brought a large number of ally.



#18 Tracker1

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:57 AM

Thanks for posting, but i really don't understand how the combos work, mostly because some cards and abilities are translated differently.

I guess i'm not sure how the two unreleased cards from the Isengard make the deck able win in the first turn.
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#19 richsabre

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:22 AM

i know i hate myself for saying this, but i cannot believe any deck can win on 1 turn with such consistency.....but as with tracker i have difficutly understanding the translations so cannot really comment

 

i think the best way to prove these things are a video link to either an octgn game or a real life game....is there one?

rich


Edited by richsabre, 07 November 2013 - 07:23 AM.

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#20 Ana

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:25 AM

Whilst I cannot understand some of the cards (I am only unsure of a very few), I see what they are doing. The two new cards from the VoI are of course essential, gaining resources and cards at the same time is just crazy powerful. And they probably use Ravens of the Mountain to advance through multiple quest stages in a single round. The recycling is the key, of course. And they will have to errata Will of the West very soon. It is almost laughable that they actually shafted the poor Master of Lore which was like the weakest of the cards instead of others that would stop the loops. So yeah, the two new previewed cards can definitely make a huge difference.

 

As for the consistency, I am ever skeptical, but I think these blokes, for a change, know what they are doing...

 

And I am not sure whether the players realise that Peace, and Thought can only be played in the refresh phase. But maybe they mean a different card... and maybe it doesn't matter, as you can still put progress in the last stage of the round...


Edited by Ana, 07 November 2013 - 07:40 AM.





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