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Did I handle this combat correctly?


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#41 deaddmwalking

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 09:58 AM

To play devil's advocate here, the difference between throwing a grenade up and throwing a grenade at a land-bound opponent is pretty minor.  Against a land-bound enemy, rarely are you going to throw the grenade in such a way that all forward momentum is arrested...  If the grenade passes through the horde in the time after it 'hits' but before it detonates, your hit would become a miss.  Further, if there was time between hitting and detonation, the horde could conceivably attempt to return the grenade to the Space Marine...  It seems that the grenade attack rolls already assume you are 'cooking' the grenade so it detonates on contact.  A miss indicates either that your timing was bad or that your throw was bad. 

 

Throwing at a flying horde is no different, but if you miss, you'd expect the scatter to be downward instead of a purely random direction.  The -10 for a flying opponent seems adequate to cover the difficulty of lobbing a grenade generally upward instead of generally outward. 



#42 pearldrum1

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:17 PM

That is actually a pretty solid point. While detonation upon impact isn`t realistic, it seems to be how the mechanics of the game favor the system - which I hadn`t considered until reading DDMW`s post.



#43 pearldrum1

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:36 PM

Let me drop this one on you - I have a horde with an elite embedded in it. Do the horde and the elite use separate initiative/movement speed, or should it all be consistent with the horde until the elite *breaks away* or engages in melee?

 

Edit: Regarding that same creature, it is enormous in size but I am requiring called shots to hit it since it is in a horde. Does it still get the +20 (size enormous) to hit if it is within a horde? If this is the case it will negate the called shot penalty.


Edited by pearldrum1, 11 November 2013 - 07:48 PM.


#44 Kshatriya

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:10 PM

If we're strictly talking RAW, there's no mechanical distinction between grenading flying/terrestrial enemies, is all I'm saying.



#45 herichimo

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:04 PM

If you have a single, specialist model in with a horde it should have the same initiative as the horde escorting it. If your players decided to shoot at the single model it would get none of the bonuses for being a horde. No need for a called shot, you are just shooting the specialist as a single character. Roll to hit and apply damage as you would a single, non-horde, enemy.

 

These single, specialist characters attack as a single model. They get no benefit from being part of a horde when they attack. Now you could decide that missile launcher character who just got pasted dropped the launcher and another mook in the horde picked it up (decrease horde size by whatever rating you consider 1 mook is). But always have the chance that killing the launcher guy scraps the launcher (25% chance or whatever you prefer). Just one more reminder, the mook picking the weapon up still has to use ready actions to do so, which means no shooting for a turn.

 

When dealing with melee specialists/elites it is more than appropriate to have these characters "hiding" in the horde. They aren't doing anything to draw attention to themselves until they can get close, and as long as they are the same size catagory they aren't easily distinguished. Give your players a chance to notice them (say an awareness test with penalties for instance), but don't give the suprise away. Do this enough times (not ALL the time) and your players will start to look for these threats in hordes sent against them (always a good thing when players use their brains).



#46 Kshatriya

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:18 PM

They certainly might get some cover in the horde, or an environmental hit penalty to nail them specifically. Happens a lot when players have to deal with innocent crowds in the modules while fighting genestealers or rebels.



#47 pearldrum1

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 09:49 PM

If you have a single, specialist model in with a horde it should have the same initiative as the horde escorting it. If your players decided to shoot at the single model it would get none of the bonuses for being a horde. No need for a called shot, you are just shooting the specialist as a single character. Roll to hit and apply damage as you would a single, non-horde, enemy.

 

These single, specialist characters attack as a single model. They get no benefit from being part of a horde when they attack. Now you could decide that missile launcher character who just got pasted dropped the launcher and another mook in the horde picked it up (decrease horde size by whatever rating you consider 1 mook is). But always have the chance that killing the launcher guy scraps the launcher (25% chance or whatever you prefer). Just one more reminder, the mook picking the weapon up still has to use ready actions to do so, which means no shooting for a turn.

 

When dealing with melee specialists/elites it is more than appropriate to have these characters "hiding" in the horde. They aren't doing anything to draw attention to themselves until they can get close, and as long as they are the same size catagory they aren't easily distinguished. Give your players a chance to notice them (say an awareness test with penalties for instance), but don't give the suprise away. Do this enough times (not ALL the time) and your players will start to look for these threats in hordes sent against them (always a good thing when players use their brains).

 

It says in the CRB that Elite enemies in a horde will use the horde as cover and a called shot is required to hit them. Dont know the page number, but that is in there! But the hiding thing will be great for future combats.

 

Dude, so I cant find it now but I know I read something about for every 2DoS with a ranged weapon against a horde another hit is allocated. Ex. I had a character fire semi auto into the horde. He earned 5DoS. So all of his bolter rounds hit +1 for explosive quality... do I add anymore hits for the DoS? That seems like an easy question but it is confusing me.

 

Essentially, do the extra hits against a horde/2DoS count AFTER the hits attributed to bolter RoF or are they additional hits you always get against the horde regardless of how many Bolter rounds struck?



#48 herichimo

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:12 PM



Dude, so I cant find it now but I know I read something about for every 2DoS with a ranged weapon against a horde another hit is allocated. Ex. I had a character fire semi auto into the horde. He earned 5DoS. So all of his bolter rounds hit +1 for explosive quality... do I add anymore hits for the DoS? That seems like an easy question but it is confusing me.

 

Essentially, do the extra hits against a horde/2DoS count AFTER the hits attributed to bolter RoF or are they additional hits you always get against the horde regardless of how many Bolter rounds struck?

 

The extra hit adds to the total number of hits generated normally. As the bonus hit from X is addative it is added after any modifers which multiply hits, but that is the only caveat.

 

Characters DO NOT inflict additional hits on hordes due to Degrees of Success from shooting (DW Core p.359).

 

Marine w/50 BS & HB (Assuming attack roll is at +0)

1: Hits with a roll of 30 from Full Auto attack

2: 1 hit from success + 2 hits from DoS = 3 hits from BS attack roll

3: [IF the character had an ability which multiplied hits it would apply now]

4: Explosive damage type adds +1 hit

5: Total: 4 hits.


Edited by herichimo, 13 November 2013 - 11:13 PM.


#49 pearldrum1

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:07 AM

Hmm. I thought I had read somewhere that they did, but the more I think about it the more I realize that I probably got that from a post on these forums. That will make horde encounters much more deadly. For example, in one combat I had my HB ht with 9 DoS - something like that. I ruled 1 hit for success + 6 for DoS +3 for extra DoS +1 explosive = 11 hits.

 

Can hits then not exceed RoF?

 

And off topic, is there a limit to number of melee attacks a PC can parry? If they get hit three times by a single enemy, do they have the opportunity to parry all three incoming blows? I would wager yes. But I would like to be sure.


Edited by pearldrum1, 14 November 2013 - 06:57 AM.


#50 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:15 AM

Hits just from bullets hitting you can never exceed RoF. That is a hard cap, but that cap is not affected by things like special abilities, X-type damage, etc. You can generate additional hits against a Horde per 2 DoS in melee. yes, this further overcomplicates the already too-complicated hit/Magnitude damage system especially when multiple attacks or special effects like Power Field are involved.

 

Parry is a Reaction. You get one Reaction per turn - can be used to Dodge OR Parry OR some other action, say the Squad Mode Fire for Effect. Meaning someone who gets hit with both rolls on a RAW Swift Attack can attempt to parry one of those attacks, the other they cannot defend against without a Talent or Squad Mode granting multiple Reactions. So, no, if someone is attacked 3 times by a single enemy, they can attempt to Parry 1 of those attacks at a baseline Special gear, Squad Modes, and Talents may increase the number of general Reactions or specific Dodge/Parry reactions they get per turn.

 

This is pretty nasty especially for tyranids. Best bet is to use a Reaction-sharing Squad Mode to defend against it.


Edited by Kshatriya, 14 November 2013 - 09:15 AM.

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#51 pearldrum1

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:23 PM

Hits just from bullets hitting you can never exceed RoF. That is a hard cap, but that cap is not affected by things like special abilities, X-type damage, etc. You can generate additional hits against a Horde per 2 DoS in melee. yes, this further overcomplicates the already too-complicated hit/Magnitude damage system especially when multiple attacks or special effects like Power Field are involved.

 

Parry is a Reaction. You get one Reaction per turn - can be used to Dodge OR Parry OR some other action, say the Squad Mode Fire for Effect. Meaning someone who gets hit with both rolls on a RAW Swift Attack can attempt to parry one of those attacks, the other they cannot defend against without a Talent or Squad Mode granting multiple Reactions. So, no, if someone is attacked 3 times by a single enemy, they can attempt to Parry 1 of those attacks at a baseline Special gear, Squad Modes, and Talents may increase the number of general Reactions or specific Dodge/Parry reactions they get per turn.

 

This is pretty nasty especially for tyranids. Best bet is to use a Reaction-sharing Squad Mode to defend against it.

 

 

Hm, I see. Thank you.

 

One more just because I am annoying like that and have come to rely on your responses:

 

What determines if friendly fire occurs. I assume it occurs on a miss when one player is firing into melee involving another squad member, but is there another roll involved? Shooting into melee is a -20, so lets say one of my players fires into melee and misses... how do I determine if his teammate is hit or not?



#52 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:32 PM

I'd say fiat, with a distinct leaning toward "don't" unless the circumstances mean the shot literally can't hit anything else but the other player.



#53 herichimo

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:35 PM

There are no mandatory rules for friendly fire resulting from shooting into melee (remember shooting into melee incurs a -20 penalty). Though the callout on page 248 has suggestions the GM can use to implement penalties for missing in combat situations .

 

I've had a character who has never been hit by friendly fire, but has taken the blast from a Krak missile and (double RF) metal storm rounds (which resulted in a shiny master-crafted arm with built in melta-gun, kind of the start of a relic bionic, I was playing a chaplain) from attacks hitting enemies I was engaged with.



#54 pearldrum1

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 08:24 AM

How about this... a nid Warrior is in melee with a PC. Another PC full auto bursts into melee, and hits the Warrior with a natural 1. Does the Warrior still get a chance to dodge? Even though it is locked in melee with another PC and has no idea some random shooter might aim for it and light it up?

 

I ruled no.



#55 herichimo

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 08:43 AM

A character is allowed to dodge attacks it is AWARE of. If a character cannot see, hear (remember most bullets etc. travel faster than sound), or feel the attack it cannot be aware of it.

 

This is usually up to the GM's discretion though. You have every right as the GM to say a character focused in a melee engagement is not aware of an attack which isn't obvious to it, can not dodge. You also have every right to say otherwise. (for instance a lucky hit you thought was impossible on a vital or key character fo your campaign which would probably kill it prematurely, sure GM fiat a dodge, or another "GM" event which saves him. Don't overuse this though.)


Edited by herichimo, 15 November 2013 - 08:44 AM.

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#56 Kshatriya

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:54 PM

I'd let the warrior dodge, as I'd say it's usually aware of the foes near it.

 

My only concern would be applying the rules consistently to both PCs and enemies.



#57 pearldrum1

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:40 AM

Again, thanks guys.

 

How about reactions? The book is stunningly vague on what they consist of. The two examples it gives are dodge and parry. I assume they can only be half actions, but would that include throwing a grenade as a reaction (drawing it being a free action and throwing it being a half)?



#58 herichimo

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:05 PM

Again, thanks guys.

 

How about reactions? The book is stunningly vague on what they consist of. The two examples it gives are dodge and parry. I assume they can only be half actions, but would that include throwing a grenade as a reaction (drawing it being a free action and throwing it being a half)?

 

Unless a character has an ability which specifically states he may use up his reaction to do something other than Dodge or Parry (such as Furious Assault or Servo Arms) a reaction may ONLY be used to either Dodge or Parry. Characters can not use their reaction to do anything else, and normally (exceptions being the aformentioned special abilities) a character can ONLY use a reaction when it is not that character's turn. (Related clarification: If your character's turn is interrupted, say with Counter Attack, while his initiative is interrupted it is technically no longer your character's turn so he can use a reaction, until the interrupting action is complete.)



#59 pearldrum1

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:02 PM

 

Again, thanks guys.

 

How about reactions? The book is stunningly vague on what they consist of. The two examples it gives are dodge and parry. I assume they can only be half actions, but would that include throwing a grenade as a reaction (drawing it being a free action and throwing it being a half)?

 

Unless a character has an ability which specifically states he may use up his reaction to do something other than Dodge or Parry (such as Furious Assault or Servo Arms) a reaction may ONLY be used to either Dodge or Parry. Characters can not use their reaction to do anything else, and normally (exceptions being the aformentioned special abilities) a character can ONLY use a reaction when it is not that character's turn. (Related clarification: If your character's turn is interrupted, say with Counter Attack, while his initiative is interrupted it is technically no longer your character's turn so he can use a reaction, until the interrupting action is complete.)

 

 

 

I didn't retconn his action, but I won't allow anything other than Parry or Dodge, unless allowed by a talent or ability for future reactions.

 

Correct me if im wrong, but PCs cannot engage a horde in melee with their basic/heavy weapons, can they? I have a horde that just charged them and a flying elite is shooting at them. My devastator just lit up the Elite flyer with his HB, but he is currently engaged in melee with the horde. I allowed it, but if he wants to engage the horde, he must switch to bolt pistol and blade, right?



#60 herichimo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:36 AM

Correct me if im wrong, but PCs cannot engage a horde in melee with their basic/heavy weapons, can they? I have a horde that just charged them and a flying elite is shooting at them. My devastator just lit up the Elite flyer with his HB, but he is currently engaged in melee with the horde. I allowed it, but if he wants to engage the horde, he must switch to bolt pistol and blade, right?

 

 

As stated in the Combat circumstances section of the Combat chapter of the Core Rulebook on page 247 under "Engaged in Melee", a character can only use attacks with the Melee subtype when engaged in melee.

 

This means no shooting at all (except pistol melee shots), either at the target you are engaged with, or other targets you aren't engaged with. A character can NOT choos to ignore being engaged to ignore this penalty, it isn't up the a character whether he is engaged or not, it is the up to the character engaging him.

 

A character is engaged when another character is close enough to attack with a melee attack and chooses to engage. There is no need to actually make attacks or use actions to engage a target, a character can engage after using the run action and moving their max distance to get into melee range and the character's controller saying "this character engages that character". As long as the character doing the engaging is in range for his melee attacks (and not stunned, bound, or unconcious of course) he can engage.






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