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Jain Fairwood way too overpowered!


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#1 Montego

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:02 AM

Hello!

 

In my opinion the character of Jain Fairwood is way too overpowered. She can rush through a map with no disadvantage.

 

Jain is a Killer when she picks Wildlander. When she equiped Fleet of Foot she could run 10 spaces only with fatigue! Than rest, use her heroic feat. move again 10 spaces and than she can attack.  In our gamegroup we will bann Jain and Wildlander.

 

Please FFGdowngrade Jain!

 

Br

 

 

Matthias



#2 rugal

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 06:15 AM

lol

 

she's not the only one to be really powerfull, and if you got thoses problems, maybe the overlord don't play enough traps to stop her.



#3 Steve-O

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:15 AM

Jain is a Killer when she picks Wildlander. When she equiped Fleet of Foot she could run 10 spaces only with fatigue! Than rest, use her heroic feat. move again 10 spaces and than she can attack.  In our gamegroup we will bann Jain and Wildlander.

 

I have difficulty understanding why it's such a big deal that she can move 20 spaces and then make one attack.  By then, she's well away from the rest of the heroes, and her feat is blown for the encounter.  So just pile on all the monsters she didn't shoot at and KO her.

 

I think it's relatively rare that there would even be a case where she needs to move 20 spaces to get off the one attack she wants.



#4 Robin

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:24 AM

Jain is fine.
If the OL is not able to cope with the challenge she offers, either ban Jain from the heroes' selection possibilities or find a more skilled OL.
Erraticizing Jain just to please a couple of unsatisfied players seems excessive.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#5 Silverhelm

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

Hello!
 
In my opinion the character of Jain Fairwood is way too overpowered. She can rush through a map with no disadvantage.
 
Jain is a Killer when she picks Wildlander. When she equiped Fleet of Foot she could run 10 spaces only with fatigue! Than rest, use her heroic feat. move again 10 spaces and than she can attack.  In our gamegroup we will bann Jain and Wildlander.
 
Please FFGdowngrade Jain!
 
Br
 
 
Matthias


Lol she's good I'll agree with that part! OP I wouldn't say that but she can't go unchecked that's for sure!

#6 rfisha

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:33 PM

 

Jain is a Killer when she picks Wildlander. When she equiped Fleet of Foot she could run 10 spaces only with fatigue! Than rest, use her heroic feat. move again 10 spaces and than she can attack.  In our gamegroup we will bann Jain and Wildlander.

 

I have difficulty understanding why it's such a big deal that she can move 20 spaces and then make one attack.  By then, she's well away from the rest of the heroes, and her feat is blown for the encounter.  So just pile on all the monsters she didn't shoot at and KO her.

 

I think it's relatively rare that there would even be a case where she needs to move 20 spaces to get off the one attack she wants.

 

 

I have played her before in a 2 hero game.  She was a deadly finisher in quests where you have to get an objective somewhere, masquerade ball type of quests etc.  She can take a beating with her fatigue and move around monsters well.

Attack wise she can really hold her own if there are not many monsters around, but I wouldn't use her 20 spaces as a move and attack - more as a grab the objective token or get to the objective and finish the quest while the monsters are out of the way type of character.  In saying that, her black arrow attack with wildlander and dodging makes her pretty potent.

You are right, you have to keep her in check by keeping monsters in a similiar area, which make easier for the warriors etc to destroy them and as soon as the OL lets up, bang she has made it to objective.

She would be even deadlier in a 4 player game. 

 

Is she overpowered to the extent she needs errata?  I wouldn't think so.



#7 Silverhelm

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:11 PM

Jain is a Killer when she picks Wildlander. When she equiped Fleet of Foot she could run 10 spaces only with fatigue! Than rest, use her heroic feat. move again 10 spaces and than she can attack. In our gamegroup we will bann Jain and Wildlander.


I have difficulty understanding why it's such a big deal that she can move 20 spaces and then make one attack. By then, she's well away from the rest of the heroes, and her feat is blown for the encounter. So just pile on all the monsters she didn't shoot at and KO her.

I think it's relatively rare that there would even be a case where she needs to move 20 spaces to get off the one attack she wants.
@steve-o
Because Steve-o it's not the shot that is the factor with her it's her ability to grab hard to reach coins and the ability to become Legolas (Lord of the Rings) in later game. Who cares if you KO her if she gets the coins she's after mission accomplished! O boy OL got a card now hope OL card is "erase coin from heroes" not going to happen (not sayin the coin loss will be game over either, but is always a good play for heroes). Not saying at all OL cards are crap because they aren't OL has the ability to perform some nice tricks but he will burn out of tricks faster then heroes (sometimes is best to hold back until encounter two anyway). Gear doesn't burn out, healing doesn't burn out either, hero feats don't either unless its a heroic feat. She only needs to do this once per encounter anyway(it would be OP if she could do it more). She also can fool you and pop that feat on quest related reasons too she is a good hero. Her and Swifty will play well together.

She can be stopped, sometimes it's just wise to hold back that good hand for later.
And this is based on the 4 on 1 game. I've only played 3 on 1 few times.

Edited by Silverhelm, 03 November 2013 - 07:41 PM.


#8 C2K

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:36 AM

Jain

 

 

 Her and Swifty will play well together.


 

 

Jain is the reason why I have faith in Orkell the Swift. 


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#9 Safyre

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

Our Overlord knows exactly how to stop her. I have been playing her in our first compaign and the pit traps and tripwires are always there. Add in there's only two players and if I get a head of the only other player, I get dog-piled and there's no choice in using my stamina as health, if I don't I go down, if I do I go down and lose it anyway. Plus, there are way too many two-square hallways that large minions can block that completely foils her movement. She doesn't have Scamper. Then once she gets anywhere, it's usually a strength or willpower that gets checked and that's where she's super weak.

 

Our Overlord is just that good. He makes using Jain a detriment instead of a bonus. One day I'll be able to buy a bow and be able to use 3/4 of her skills to some effect....

 

-Saf


- Saf


#10 No Hero

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:47 PM

Your Overlord stops Jain with tripwires and pit traps at awareness 4? You must be terrible at rolling dice! Also tripwire isn't effective against her heroic feat, and pit trap has to be used on the very last space of her movement

As for not being able to get too far ahead alone: well duh. The point of her heroic feat isn't that she's always able to get anywhere and do anything - it's that in one turn she's able to cross the map and make, say, that attack that kills Belthir before the monsters tear apart the last watchman on its last wound. The fact that the OL has to consider this threat all the encounter or risk losing in a flash makes her feat worthwhile even if it's never used - he will be forced into subpar moves like, for example, leaving a master merriod at the end of a 2 squares wide corridor instead of having him rip in the heroes or doing anything that actually fulfills his own victory condition.


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#11 Surreal

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:38 PM

I think Jain is good but only when she is a thief. That heroic move is very good with Tumble. Wildlander I don't find very effective. Damage output is about middle level but discard random overlord skill is great. Your overlord should just try  the common "block corridors with large monster" strategy if you are worried about Jain. Pit Traps and Tripwires are quite bad and are usually one of the first cards to remove from the deck.


Edited by Surreal, 06 November 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#12 C2K

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:38 PM

Conditions ike Disease, Curse, and Immobilize really hamper Jain.  Disease and Curse are hard forb Jain to remove and will keep her close to the rest of the heroes, assuming one can help rid her of the conditions.  No Rest For the Wicked (Punisher Class) is great to play on turns where you think heroes are likely to use their fatigue to move.  Hybrid Sentinels hit Jain hard because she has 2 strength. 



#13 Safyre

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:45 AM

We were playing it like her heroic feat was just like a move, just an extra one, and was affected by anything that affected a move (including tripwires, pit traps and those pesky master cave spiders). If this is wrong, then no wonder we keep losing to our Overlord!

 

We have just started Act II so we haven't really had a fair shake to be able to really use her heroic, yet... especially with our Overlord. He really knows how to shut our big moves down and he makes us have to stick together so we don't get mobbed. The one time I tried to do a long move to get one of the objectives fast, he had those goblin archers stationed in such a way there was no way I wasn't going to be in range for attacks. I tried it anyway feeling lucky, but it was delusions of grandeur. With three goblin archers on me (one a master) and me just rolling one gray die for each, I went down on the second turn of the game. Our Overlord then stationed a minion adjacent to me to keep knocking me down until help could arrive. But by then, we already lost a couple crops to the overlord and it was a serious fight not to lose a third. We were able to save one.

 

Like I mentioned, we played way too much Bloodbowl in the past and know how to move in such ways to cancel the others movement advantages. Descent is actually much easier to keep track of since there are only two heroes instead of eleven (as was in Bloodbowl).

 

For the most part, the Overlord has at least twice the number of minions than heroes at his or her disposal and the minions have equal or better movements. Hindering hero movement is much easier than the heroes trying to hinder minion movement.

 

I think Wildlanders should be able to throw down some traps of their own. ;)

 

And yes, if there is a random chance to win something, I will not win. At best I may break even, but that's not often either. Our Overlord played the card that allows him to take control of me in our last game. There was a gasp of awe from all of us when I actually made the roll. That just doesn't happen. The galaxies must have been in alignment or something.


- Saf


#14 No Hero

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:59 AM

Tripwire doesn't work because the card specifically refers to a move action - Jain isn't taking that, she's using her heroic feat.

Pit Trap would work, but it's just a measly movement point over 10 and Jain has Awareness 4 so why bother?

Cave Spiders actually work fine though

 

While it's true that the OL has more minions, they have less hp, a lot less for the more numorous groups, and do you know what the heroes have? Easy access to area of effect attacks on a lot of characters. Get a runemaster and a spiritspeaker in the same party, and give a blast weapon to a third character for the lulz, and suddenly the OL must move very carefully or lose all of his monsters in a single round. (BTW, like Jain's feat, AoE attacks are one of those things that don't need to ever be used to impact the game)

 

And I roll horribly too, at Descent or in any other game... My specialty is the blue attack die: I swear I miss on it one third of the time!

 



#15 griton

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

I think Wildlanders should be able to throw down some traps of their own. ;)

Those are for the Stalker class in the Trollfens expansion. ;-)

 

 

Pit Trap would work, but it's just a measly movement point over 10 and Jain has Awareness 4 so why bother?

Jain doesn't actually gain any movement points from her Heroic Feat. (Contrast with other characters which are given movement points which can be used whenever). As such, Pit Trap would work, and would Stun her, but she would still get to finish her movement and then be stunned after completing her heroic feat (which includes the attack). The next ACTION she would have to take would be to remove the Stun token. 


Edited by griton, 07 November 2013 - 11:07 AM.


#16 No Hero

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:41 PM

 

Jain doesn't actually gain any movement points from her Heroic Feat. (Contrast with other characters which are given movement points which can be used whenever). As such, Pit Trap would work, and would Stun her, but she would still get to finish her movement and then be stunned after completing her heroic feat (which includes the attack). The next ACTION she would have to take would be to remove the Stun token. 

 

Are you positive on that? I thought you gained movement points from everything that allowed you to move, be that a move action or anything else...

I swear for a supposedly fast and fun dungeon crawling experience this game can be really clunky. How many rules for moving does a game really need?

Be that as it may, Jain still has Awareness 4, and she passes the test for a pit trap roughly 70% of times. I'm not sure I should keep it in my deck only to use it unreliably when she uses her feat



#17 griton

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:19 AM

Movement is a bit (over?) complicated in Descent.

 

Movement Points are specifically gained only from Move Actions and things that say "Movement Points". Movement Points enter a pool that can be spent at any point during the turn. "Move up to X" is a separate process (I don't want to use the word action here) that must be resolved immediately and completely before doing other things. It also can not be interrupted as it is not a Move Action.

 

That said, Justin has responded to me (I really need to get those added to the BGG FFG Sez thread) that Jain's Heroic Feat should say that the attack can be performed before, during, or after that movement. But no other actions (such as searching) could be performed during it as it isn't a Move Action.



#18 No Hero

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:54 PM


That said, Justin has responded to me (I really need to get those added to the BGG FFG Sez thread) that Jain's Heroic Feat should say that the attack can be performed before, during, or after that movement. But no other actions (such as searching) could be performed during it as it isn't a Move Action.

 

That has been errataed directly on her sheet in the reprint, I have the correct version.

 

Stealth errata hunting fro great justice! The more I read this forum and BBG, the more I find out about things we played "wrong", meaning going with what made the most sense



#19 Robin

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:56 PM


 

The more I read this forum and BBG, the more I find out about things we played "wrong", meaning going with what made the most sense

I think that, when it comes to rules abstractions, "sense" has quite a relative meaning. ;)


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#20 No Hero

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:57 PM

 

I think that, when it comes to rules abstractions, "sense" has quite a relative meaning. ;)


 

The more I read this forum and BBG, the more I find out about things we played "wrong", meaning going with what made the most sense

 

Abstract rules can make sense, if they are internally consistent and more or less represent the situation they want to model with a minimal degree of verosimilitude

Let's take movement as an example again, because we're talking about it and really it's the worst offender.

Your basic movement option is the move action. When taking a move action you receive movement points equal to your speed. Spending a movement point allows you to move one square; entering difficult terrain (water) costs you two MPs; if you are immobilized you can't gain or spend any MP by any means.

That would be a simple, effective, streamlined method with which to model all movement in this game.

Then you have effect that let you "move up to x", where x in this case is double Jain's speed, but there are others. These are unaffected by things like tripwire, we already know, because that specifically requires a move action. What's more, these allow you to move without gaining or spending any MPs - with a lot of interesting effects. You may undertake them even when immobilized; apparently you can move through difficult terrain without penalties, since you are moving squares, not using movement; and a pit trap would not impede your movement in any way, just leave you stunned at the end of it.

Now try and tell me the authors couldn't have saved everyone a lot of headscratching if Jain's feat (and similar abilities) read something like "gain 10 movement points and perform an attack action; you must spend these points and perform the attack before you take any other action" Ta-dah, now it's modeled similarly to ordinary movement!

(As a side note, I just remembered the volucrix reaver's skirmish works similarly, but that's not as bad since heroes don't interact as much with enemy movement as the OL does through cards)

Then we have "place" effects. These break movement by effectively being teleportation. A knight's Oath of Honor teleports her in the chosen square, cannot be stopped, cannot be targeted by a pit trap in the landing square (she did not enter it, she was placed in it), cannot anything. Syndrael will be able to recover fatigue because she did not move - she was placed! It might even be flavorful with a character like Tomble (hide in the shadows and reappear suddenly and in an unexpected place), but when a knight does it's another headscratcher.

Then we have large monster movement, where shrinking and expanding are just things that happen to their base without being an actual move. Besides silliness with interrupting a move action with another move action, and a general immunity to dififcult terrain, and the card No Rest for the Wicked being a lot more powerful than it was probably intended to be, that means they can get close to a wildlander without triggering nimble for reasons.

then we have fly, and the best thing about it is that as it is written, technically a flying hero could be interrupted by a tripwire or pit trap - you are just ignoring obstacles but still entering empty spaces! It's more like you make small jumps over blocked squares than flying now.

 

There's not one of these rules that doesn't clash with something else in the same subsystem. This is what I mean with not being internally consistent. This is what I try to avoid when calling for "sense".






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