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can Choosing the Spear stand the Red Viper


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#1 sky_cuson

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:10 AM

The point is that stand a martell char is a cost or effect, and why? Thank you for answer.



#2 stormwolf27

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 09:15 AM

Choosing the Spear will not stand TRV, because he is immune to events and it says to choose and stand a [Martell] character. In order for it to be a cost, it needs to say "do x to do y."

 

You could use him to pay the cost of To Be a Viper by standing him, because it is you, the player, paying a cost, not the event causing him to stand. Or you could kneel him for Game of Cyvasse because the event is targetting each player in turn, forcing them to kneel a character... it doesn't affect the character(s) directly, except for the return to hand effect after STR is counted.


Edited by stormwolf27, 02 November 2013 - 09:15 AM.

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#3 livingEND

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

Game of Cyvasse is an event and the kneel part isn't a cost. Therefore the Viper is immune to all of its effects, i.e. both kneeling and returning to hand.


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#4 stormwolf27

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:51 PM

Game of Cyvasse is an event and the kneel part isn't a cost. Therefore the Viper is immune to all of its effects, i.e. both kneeling and returning to hand.

the event doesn't cause him to kneel. it simply says the player must choose and kneel a character with an intrugue icon. It's the same way claim replacement can get rid of things immune to certain card effects, as I understand it.


Edited by stormwolf27, 02 November 2013 - 04:53 PM.

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#5 sWhiteboy

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 09:58 PM

livingEND is correct.  TRV cannot be chosen for any part of Cyvasse.

 

Regardless of who chooses the character to be knelt, Cyvasse's effect is still that of an Event, which TRV is immune to.


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#6 Vaapad

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:49 AM

Correct. It is not the same as claim replacement.

Take this example. TRV is clearly immune to Die By the Sword - the player playing that card cannot "choose" TRV. The result would be no different if Die By the Sword read, "after you win ... the losing player must choose and kill one of his characters." If the event were worded that way and the Martell player had only TRV left alive after claim, it would do nothing.

Claim replacement is entirely different because it causes card text to substitute for claim -- a game mechanic to which TRV is not immune.
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#7 mdc273

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:00 PM

Game of Cyvasse - "Challenges: Each player must choose and kneel a character with an Intrigue icon he or she controls, if able. Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand." -CGDB

 

Just adding something to this. "Each player..." has been established as the templating that indicates an effect is independently resolved by each player (that is to say that one player being unable to satisfy the effect does not prevent it from resolving for other players). Each player is not the subject of the effect and thus the clarification that the target of an effect is the subject of an effect does not apply to the "Each player" text. The actual effect is "Choose and kneel a character with an intrigue icon you control, if able." As this effect is generated from an event and requires choosing a character, choosing The Red Viper is an attempt by an event to target him. This is explicitly disallowed by his immunity.


Edited by mdc273, 04 November 2013 - 03:02 PM.

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#8 doulos2k

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:31 PM

Well said, MDC. The bottom line is - does the event's effect affect the character? Then TRV is immune to the effect.

 

What confuses this is what others have already said, those rare situations where an event or effect directly affects a game mechanic. The most common example is Pyat Pree. Is the text of Pyat Pree a character ability? Yes. Then why isn't TRV immune (since he's also immune to character abilities). It's because Pyat Pree targets a specific game mechanic: claim. It's like Pyat Pree is allowing the claim mechanic to gain a kill effect (at least it's the way I look at it to keep it straight).

 

Another example (that doesn't exist, but I hope it's helpful in illustration) would be if some character ability said, "After you win a challenge, choose a location. That locations gains, 'Any Phase: Kneel this location to choose and kill 1 character.'" The character is giving the ability to a location. Could that player then kneel that location and have it kill TRV? Yes. Because the character is giving the kill effect to another game entity to which TRV is not immune.

 

I'm sure if there's a technicality here that I'm missing... someone will correct me. It's just a short-hand that I find easy to understand and explain why certain effects can appear to "get around" an immunity.


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#9 sWhiteboy

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:49 PM

@Doulos2k  If you want a real example to use in the future:

 

Lost Oasis + Character versus a Stannis (VM)


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#10 doulos2k

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:56 PM

Yes, that's a very good example. Stannis is immune to locations, but not characters. I was trying to keep it in line with the TRV example, but that's a good real-world example. Thanks.


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