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#41 Wuyley

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:14 PM

As for Errata just do what my game group does and play it how its on the card. Ignorance is bliss.


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#42 JorduSpeaks

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:16 AM

As for Errata just do what my game group does and play it how its on the card. Ignorance is bliss.

 

I'm almost at the point of doing this, myself.  In my experience, this game is in no way balanced.  Encounters are usually a blowout for one side or the other.  There are just too many variables to manage.  You might as well just do away with the pretense of balance altogether.



#43 C2K

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:09 AM

A warrior that cannot take a hit is like a mage that doesn't cast spells. Viable, but easily outclassed by people who actually fit the roles they were designed for. Someone is going to have to take a hit if the warrior can't, and I guess FFG wants to make the Tank Mage a new class, given the prevalence of the Rune Plate.

If the combat had more depth to it than Heart - Shield = Damage, maybe Swifty's brown defense die would make sense. The game just doesn't factor evasion at all, outside of Deep Elves/Wendigos having the 'Stealthy' ability. Most quests have far too many monsters in play at once to warrant a melee class with that little health using a die that has a 50% chance to do nothing at all. Swifty's going to be down a lot because he's an easy target; Ten health, poor innate defense and being a warrior class that doesn't use shields means free overlord cards and time wasted having other heroes picking him up. He really needs something to mitigate damage if he's going to be anything more than a liability to his team.

 

 

If this was a straight up "kill all the monsters" game, then sure, he would be bad.  But this is an objective game, and this guy will be able to get to objectives relatively easy.  Ever think how fast this guy can clear a secret room? 

 

The skirmisher class is an unknown and its probably best for him, but I can see myself using him as a Berserker or a Beastmaster. 

 

 

As for the mage, I think she has a brown dice for defense, because if she does have a black dice, why would I ever want to use another mage with her available?  I guess with exception of Leoric, because he is the ultimate "team" mage. 



#44 Kunzite

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:08 AM

As for Errata just do what my game group does and play it how its on the card. Ignorance is bliss.

 

The only objection I have with that is Warlord OL class cards. With the use of low level Magus, it's a broken combo. And this is talking from an OL that has played it. I feel at least Reinforce needs a tweak. Bloodlust could most likely use a tweak as well. Otherwise, I agree! I haven't found anything else with the game that really needs fixing, aside from a few CK things, but that's another can of worms.


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#45 Steve-O

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:50 AM

If this was a straight up "kill all the monsters" game, then sure, he would be bad.  But this is an objective game, and this guy will be able to get to objectives relatively easy.  Ever think how fast this guy can clear a secret room?

 

Are there any quests where clearing a secret room is one of the objectives?  This sounds like something of a non-sequitur.

 

So he's great at getting to objectives, but he's a glass cannon if a monster ever hits him.  That means he'll be awesome in some quests and pitiful in others, depending on what the objective is and whether or not the OL is able to get a decent shot in on him.  I suppose time will tell just how often this guy ends up flat on his back.


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#46 Silverhelm

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:18 AM

I think that Swifty can be interesting. A warrior that can't "tank" or do the usal: run up to nearest monster, hit it with all you've got, then recive one or two blows from the enemy. To me he looks like a strategy changer, since he is super fast and have loads of fatigue and doesn't suffer from the "typical" warrior problem of low awerness (I hate tripwire). So with Swifty you will have to think more about your place ment since he is more prone to be squished.

A warrior that cannot take a hit is like a mage that doesn't cast spells. Viable, but easily outclassed by people who actually fit the roles they were designed for. Someone is going to have to take a hit if the warrior can't, and I guess FFG wants to make the Tank Mage a new class, given the prevalence of the Rune Plate.
If the combat had more depth to it than Heart - Shield = Damage, maybe Swifty's brown defense die would make sense. The game just doesn't factor evasion at all, outside of Deep Elves/Wendigos having the 'Stealthy' ability. Most quests have far too many monsters in play at once to warrant a melee class with that little health using a die that has a 50% chance to do nothing at all. Swifty's going to be down a lot because he's an easy target; Ten health, poor innate defense and being a warrior class that doesn't use shields means free overlord cards and time wasted having other heroes picking him up. He really needs something to mitigate damage if he's going to be anything more than a liability to his team.
When I see a melee hero like swifty I think powerhouse scout. A brown dice might not seem that great in the beginning but if he is used like a second scout or even a heavy hitting scout choice (use him as scout choice add another red class option). My group often chooses two scouts anyway (early coin grab can be devastating!). This guy is almost ready to become a tank, gold grab would be expected for better early armor upgrade (pretty much all he needs anyway). The new class deck I suspect will have defense and duel wielding in it making him a nasty monster CC hero (if played well defense probably not needed). No hero can perfectly garentee not being KO'd by OL anyway (dice rolls ect.). What if this new class deck had a skill called Second Wind-ignor first knock down...ouch I'd hate him already!

He is painted red but he's more green to me and that's not a bad thing!

My two cents anyway...

Edited by Silverhelm, 30 October 2013 - 10:52 AM.

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#47 JBouthietteJr

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:52 AM

Initial thoughts from preview:

 

 

OOOHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHH NEW EXPANSION

 

*achem*

 

While a city theme doesn't blow me away, I like that it's quite different from what we've seen for Descent thus far, so it intrigues me.

 

NEW MONSTERS OOOHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHH

 

I've actually gotten a recent interest in playing heroes, so new ones will be cool, considering these ones strike my fancy:

 

-brown die Swifty, while probably not a fan favorite, will at least be interesting to play

-new Mage definitely has a black die, as far as I can tell

-finally, a Scout class that I'll actually want to play

-Bard, while not my favorite idea for a class going into it, seems like it has an interesting enough mechanic

 

Looks like a new ally, and at least three new lieutenants? The second image from the preview, with all the components surrounding the box art, has a 2 x 2 token, looks like a baddie, plus the 2 x 1 and the single-space one further down.

 

And just because I can't emphasize it enough, NEW MONSTERS OHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHH

 

I couldn't care less about errata'd stuff because I don't play with errata. Shrug.

 

DID SOMEONE SAY NEW MONSTERS?

 

Still don't have Trollfens, which is an obvious must-have, but I'm already looking forward to this one.


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#48 C2K

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:50 PM

 

 


 

Are there any quests where clearing a secret room is one of the objectives?  This sounds like something of a non-sequitur.

 

So he's great at getting to objectives, but he's a glass cannon if a monster ever hits him.  That means he'll be awesome in some quests and pitiful in others, depending on what the objective is and whether or not the OL is able to get a decent shot in on him.  I suppose time will tell just how often this guy ends up flat on his back.

 

 

Secret Rooms are usually secondary objectives, but they take time and sometimes the risk is greater than the reward.  However, if you can cut down the time needed to clear a secret room, you cut the risk and grant a boon to your hero group.  Its situational for sure, but nt something that should be discounted. 

 

And you are correct, he is a glass cannon.  How he does will ultimately depend on how well he is used by his player. 



#49 PlainWhiteBread

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

If this was a straight up "kill all the monsters" game, then sure, he would be bad.  But this is an objective game, and this guy will be able to get to objectives relatively easy.  Ever think how fast this guy can clear a secret room? 

 

The skirmisher class is an unknown and its probably best for him, but I can see myself using him as a Berserker or a Beastmaster. 

 

 

As for the mage, I think she has a brown dice for defense, because if she does have a black dice, why would I ever want to use another mage with her available?  I guess with exception of Leoric, because he is the ultimate "team" mage. 

 

The encounters are usually not kill-all campaigns, but each encounter DOES contain monsters: Monsters that the OL will use to block paths, kill NPCs or carry objective tokens; Monsters that need to be defeated in order for the heroes to complete their objective. Combat in this game is unavoidable, and having a low-health hero with flimsy defense options spending most of their time in harms' way like a red-class does is a recipe for frustration. If Swifty can't bring down a monster and get far enough out of harm's way from the other monsters on the map, he's going to faceplant frequently and spectacularly. Five fatigue doesn't mean much when he's constantly at full fatigue from being KOed all the time.

If the Skirmisher class provides Swifty with some survivability, then what's stopping players from picking a hero with naturally MORE survivability like Nanok of the Blade or Hugo the Glorious and using the Skirmisher deck instead? While they have less move and fatigue, they're considerably harder to bring down, which is more valuable to the party in the long run than spending actions to pick Swifty up every turn.



#50 JorduSpeaks

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:43 PM

The new fighter's value comes from two factors.  First, he has more speed than any other fighter, and getting wounded actually increases his movement range.  With his ability, a grey or black die would actually make him weaker, as it would decrease his effective speed.  Second, even though he may be relatively easy to kill the first time, his ultimate ability should keep him from getting targeted a second time.  He will play differently from other fighters, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes him interesting.


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#51 PlainWhiteBread

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:34 PM

Having looked up Swifty's feat, I gotta say I'm not surprised. It seems the designers know he's going to be spending a lot of his time flat on his back! The ability to stand up for free with full recovery is useful for someone who's going to be knocked out a lot, and the ability to move monsters would be useful if he could use it to push monsters into lava or into a pit. He's STILL at full fatigue, though. Not quite as useful as one would hope.

At least Varikas the Dead can take some abuse before being knocked down and recovers with both full life AND fatigue. Then again, he knows what he's getting into the second time around, having been dead and all.

 

The new fighter's value comes from two factors.  First, he has more speed than any other fighter, and getting wounded actually increases his movement range.  With his ability, a grey or black die would actually make him weaker, as it would decrease his effective speed.  Second, even though he may be relatively easy to kill the first time, his ultimate ability should keep him from getting targeted a second time.  He will play differently from other fighters, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes him interesting.

Since when is a warrior being 'relatively easy to kill the first time' a good thing? When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'? He's just too damn easy to beat up. He'll play differently all right; He'll be the lagging anchor that keeps the team from doing what they have to do, because they'll have to keep picking him up after he expends his heroic feat.

Hell, Eliam has 5 movement and 5 fatigue just like Swifty, and nobody cares about him, because it's been debated that Eliam is hands-down the worst Warrior in the lot. Why? Mediocre attributes and oh look! A brown defense die; The die that has a 50% chance to do nothing at all to help him stay alive. At least Landrec the Wise -- the other hero who has a brown defense die -- can attack from range and duck out of the way. Swifty has to get out of both line of sight from ranged attacks and melee/reach range. Nara the Fang has the same attributes as Swifty, 5 movement and 4 fatigue but rolls a gray die, which only has one blank side.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Ravaella Lightfoot, with the Rune Plate and a rune weapon, is going to be bonkers. Rolling 2 Black dice with an absolute minimum of one shield, plus her feat allows her to test her two 4-stat attributes to get 3 shields each! This girl is going to be nigh untouchable, and will give the OL fits.


Edited by PlainWhiteBread, 30 October 2013 - 05:36 PM.


#52 rugal

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:41 PM

Swifty looks like a powerless Varikas in my opinion



#53 Silverhelm

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:24 PM

The new fighter's value comes from two factors.  First, he has more speed than any other fighter, and getting wounded actually increases his movement range.  With his ability, a grey or black die would actually make him weaker, as it would decrease his effective speed.  Second, even though he may be relatively easy to kill the first time, his ultimate ability should keep him from getting targeted a second time.  He will play differently from other fighters, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes him interesting.


Wow I missed that until you mentioned that he sounds even better bet that heroic feat has something else that makes him Move too. Speed is sometimes more valuable then defense in lots of cases. Like dash card for monsters speed for heroes just as nasty.

#54 BsnOne

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:41 PM

There is a lot of hate going on for the new Warrior character in this new expansion. Why not reserve judgement until we even see what the new Skirmisher class skills offer? And if you hate him for his brown die, then don't play him. If you feel he must be played, then jump on the first armor you can get and slap it on him.

 

For all we know, the Skirmisher class may get a bonus for no armor, as thematically it may slow him down. 

 

The brown die: the most hated of all Descent dice.


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#55 Silverhelm

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:49 PM

With a name like Swifty I'm almost 100% sure that heroic feat is a speed move of some type! I have that feeling this guy will live up to his name lol.

Edited by Silverhelm, 30 October 2013 - 09:54 PM.


#56 BsnOne

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:16 PM

Here is a link to the new expansion's mini-site. It previews both the new Warrior and Mage character, so you can judge for yourself how they add up, hero ability and heroic feat in all:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...eidm=220&esem=1



#57 PlainWhiteBread

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:19 PM

There is a lot of hate going on for the new Warrior character in this new expansion. Why not reserve judgement until we even see what the new Skirmisher class skills offer? And if you hate him for his brown die, then don't play him. If you feel he must be played, then jump on the first armor you can get and slap it on him.

 

For all we know, the Skirmisher class may get a bonus for no armor, as thematically it may slow him down. 

 

The brown die: the most hated of all Descent dice.

When the bard can take a hit better than you, consider another line of work.

The brown die has three faces that have nothing on them. It's hardly an effective method of base defense, especially for a warrior who will be getting attacked by multiple enemies a turn.
 

I don't plan on playing Swifty at all, because low health and poor defensive options in this game is a big ol' sign that says 'Free Overlord Cards, inquire within'. If there was some sort of 'dodge mechanic' that he had for a hero ability (that didn't require him to get slapped around first), he would be able to roll with the big boys; The Cloak of Deception or the Elven Robes can provide mitigation, but they only trigger on one attack per turn; He's at least rolling Grey/Brown on all the other attacks after that.

Whatever the skirmisher class cards do for Swifty will benefit all the other warriors the same, unless it specifies 'if you roll a brown defense die'; even then, wearing the Thief's Vest or Leather Armor will allow any hero rolling the gray die will allow them to roll brown as well. If the class cards say 'if you wear no armor', then hello, Skirmisher Nanok of the Blade.


Edited by PlainWhiteBread, 30 October 2013 - 10:20 PM.

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#58 Wuyley

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:36 AM

 

As for Errata just do what my game group does and play it how its on the card. Ignorance is bliss.

 

The only objection I have with that is Warlord OL class cards. With the use of low level Magus, it's a broken combo. And this is talking from an OL that has played it. I feel at least Reinforce needs a tweak. Bloodlust could most likely use a tweak as well. Otherwise, I agree! I haven't found anything else with the game that really needs fixing, aside from a few CK things, but that's another can of worms.

 

 

I could see how it would be a problem with gaming groups that are "min/maxers" but I just play casually with my brothers and as the OL I will just pick monsters that I haven't used before, not because they would be the most effective.



#59 JorduSpeaks

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 02:14 AM

When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'? 

 

Remember, he also gets two free actions.  How are they going to attack him a second time when he's ten spaces away?

 

Clearly, this is not a character to tank with.  If you use the normal strategies with him, you're going to fail.  Orkell the Swift is made for hit and run attacks, and he seems like he will work well at that.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating his fragility.  Each time a monster damages him moves him farther away from the overlords other monsters, making it harder to dogpile him or surround him than other heroes.


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#60 Kirgat

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:31 AM

 

When he feats, he can choose to recover all of his health or move all monsters one space away from him. How is that going to 'keep him from being targeted a second time'? 

 

Remember, he also gets two free actions.  How are they going to attack him a second time when he's ten spaces away?

 

Clearly, this is not a character to tank with.  If you use the normal strategies with him, you're going to fail.  Orkell the Swift is made for hit and run attacks, and he seems like he will work well at that.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating his fragility.  Each time a monster damages him moves him farther away from the overlords other monsters, making it harder to dogpile him or surround him than other heroes.

 

Also, his feat can help A LOT in opening paths. Remember OL usually uses monsters to block heroes path in order to get his objective so having a kamikaze to run into enemies' hords and then moving all of them back can be useful (once per encounter). The only thing is I find even this strategy easy to dodge by the OL but surely will make him think twice his strategy. Also any hero wants to get killed (for many reasons but also for free OL cards)... We'll have to try him but I believe this class could have fit easily within scouts as an assassin or something like that better than warriors... but thats my opinion






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