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The Insight token


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#1 The9ofSpades

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

Hello dungeon dwellers,
I have a question in regards to the Trollfens expansion and the Insight Token.

Can anyone see a reason why the Prophet's "Soothing Insight" ability could not be used to revive a hero without spending an action? The text on the card reads as follows;

Exhaust this card during your turn, you or one hero of your choice gains the Insight Token. When a hero gains the insight token, he gains 1 (damage) and 1 (fatigue). A hero may discard the Insight Token at any time during his turn to recover 1 (damage). (Cost 1 Fatigue)

Because the text doesn't read "an adjacent hero", or "a hero within 3 spaces" and says "one hero of your choice", it could be given to a hero as a means of revival. The downside to doing this is that they won't recover as much damage as they would with 2 red dice (presumably), the upside it doesn't cost an action, and it guarantees the target hero recovers a fatigue.

Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated.
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#2 Cursain

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

It does not work like that.  Heroes that are knocked out are not on the board, just their token is.  A hero token cannot carry objectives or other items while they are on the map.


Edited by Cursain, 27 October 2013 - 04:55 PM.


#3 The9ofSpades

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:32 PM

It does not work like that.  Heroes that are knocked out are not on the board, just their token is.  A hero token cannot carry objectives or other items while they are on the map.


And if the card read "an adjacent hero" or "a hero within 3 spaces" or "a hero within your line of sight" I would absolutely agree with you, but since it clearly says "you or 1 hero of your choice", the target hero doesn't need to be on the board.

Example, Augor Grisom's Heroic Feat uses the words "all heroes in your line of sight" and therefore would not affect a knocked out hero.
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#4 Cursain

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:14 PM

I think I'm wrong.  This is a good question for Justin and the other Descent designers.



#5 Kunzite

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:04 PM

I still agree with Cursain. The KOed hero is not on the board to receive the token. This is true with any other object, I believe it would be true for this as well.

 

Kind of wish it did, even as the OL. I wouldn't mind an even easier target to smash. Nice thought though.


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#6 BsnOne

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:08 AM

What if the hero already has the Insight Token, and then is KOed? Could he then use it to revive himself (albeit only receiving 1 health)? 



#7 rugal

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:53 AM

But for example, a hero can use a heal potion or healing power on a knocked hero ?

 

so why not the insight token ?

 

I think too that you should ask justin


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#8 Steve-O

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:12 AM



It does not work like that.  Heroes that are knocked out are not on the board, just their token is.  A hero token cannot carry objectives or other items while they are on the map.

 

Normally I would agree with this, but the rules for being KO'd specifically say healing effects can still target a KO'd hero.  I think Soothing Insight qualifies.  (At least, I'm not familiar with any definition of a "healing ability" other than "it lets you recover [heart]")

 

There are plenty of other ways to revive heroes without using an action via various helaing abilities, so I don't think this is a balance concern.  Soothing Insight is probably one of the least powerful such options.

 



What if the hero already has the Insight Token, and then is KOed? Could he then use it to revive himself (albeit only receiving 1 health)? 

 

No, the KO'd hero cannot use any abilities (whether they cost an action or not,) except to Stand Up.  Therefore the KO'd hero could not activate the second part of the ability.  The first part of the ability works because it's the Prophet who's doing it.


Edited by Steve-O, 28 October 2013 - 06:15 AM.

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#9 griton

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:00 AM

Steve-O basically has the right of it, but let's look at the relevant parts of the rulebook:

 

p. 15: Knocked Out, paragraph 1.

p19: KnockedA hero cannot use skills or abilities while knocked out, unless an effect specifically allows it.

As Soothing Insight doesn't say they may discard the token while knocked out, they can't.

 

p. 15: Knocked Out, paragraph 5.

A knocked out hero may still recover damage from other heroes through the use of skills...

 

p. 15: Knocked Out Heroes (sidebar) (emphasis FFG)

...hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover any amount of damage. For this exception, the knocked out hero's hero token is treated as a hero even if another figure occupies the space containing the hero token.

 

As such, using Soothing Insight is an ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover damage, so CAN be used. Even if the ability DID say "within X spaces", "adjacent", etc., it would STILL be able to be used because, for the purposes of healing, the hero token is effectively the hero.

 

 

 

A hero token cannot carry objectives or other items while they are on the map.

This statement is only partially true. Figures drop objective tokens when they are defeated (and can't perform an action to pick them back up). The Insight Token, however, is not an objective token (these are a specific subset of all tokens in the game), so the rule about Carrying Objective Tokens (also on page 15), doesn't apply here.

 

This also doesn't really apply to "other items", though. The hero doesn't just drop all of his equipment; he is still carrying every other item he has. They just can't receive any other items because they can't take actions to receive them, and can't be targeted by someone else that wants to give them because they aren't on the board, and Trading Items doesn't heal them. (Though theoretically, if there was an item that healed a figure when traded, it could be, but most of those items would trigger on use, not on receiving the item.)



#10 Kunzite

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

Alright. That is all good and well, but I am still questing the GIVING of the Insight Token while a hero is down. Yes, it would heal them, but doesn't the hero have to be standing and able to revive it for that to work? I think of Valor and Elixir tokens when I think of this. If the heroes are down then they do not get to be the target of Valor or Elixir tokens when a skill goes off. How, then, is the Insight Token different?


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#11 jadedbacon

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 02:03 PM

I guess there's a little bit of a gray area.  The rules say that a hero can only be affected by an ability that would allow the hero to recover any amount of health, but the way the Soothing Insight is worded, you get the Token, and then recover health.  So, if the intent is that the ability has to specifically and directly make a hero recover health (Healing potion, Healing Rain, Prayer of Healing) then a hero could not be affected by Soothing Insight because the ability makes a hero gain the Insight Token - THEN recover health.  The hero has to be able to receive the token in the first place (which the hero can't by example of Valor tokens and Elixir tokens) to be able to recover health from having received it.

 

 

Exhaust this card during your turn, you or one hero of your choice gains the Insight Token. When a hero gains the insight token, he gains 1 (damage) and 1 (fatigue). A hero may discard the Insight Token at any time during his turn to recover 1 (damage). (Cost 1 Fatigue)

 

p. 15: Knocked Out Heroes (sidebar) (emphasis FFG)

...hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover any amount of damage. For this exception, the knocked out hero's hero token is treated as a hero even if another figure occupies the space containing the hero token.

 

 

I'm mostly just playing Devil's advocate here and splitting hairs.  The way I see it is that the heroes can be revived with Soothing Insight, just thinking of how a 'Rules lawyer' might try to word it in a way to deny it.  To be absolutely sure I'd recommend sending a question to FFG.

 

Personally I'm going to play it that they can revive with Soothing Insight, which could make the Prophet the best emergency healer in the game (albeit with a really weak heal).  Sometimes all the heroes need is one health to completely foil the OLs plan.


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#12 MadBat

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:49 AM

As an OL, I wouldn't mind a hero being healed with 1hp.

That's a quick extra card for me.

So why not ? ;)



#13 Cursain

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:01 AM

As an OL, I wouldn't mind a hero being healed with 1hp.

That's a quick extra card for me.

So why not ? ;)

 

True, but it also sucks when Nanok stands up with 1 life, wielding a Grinding Axe and deals 20 or so damage with a couple attacks to your creatures.  Favor goes to the heroes.



#14 griton

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:32 AM

I think of Valor and Elixir tokens when I think of this. If the heroes are down then they do not get to be the target of Valor or Elixir tokens when a skill goes off. How, then, is the Insight Token different?

 

Neither Valor nor Elixir Tokens directly heal a hero when they are given. Elixir tokens only heal a hero when that hero discards them during their turn. This is precisely what makes the Insight Token different: it heals immediately and independent of any hero actions.

 

Granted, is it possible this isn't intended by FFG? Sure. But based on the rules as written, I doubt it. 



#15 Kunzite

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

I honestly feel it is splitting hairs, but that's what we do sometimes. I play the OL most of the time. I don't mind them standing up with a max of 2 HP by the end of their turn. It's the fact of the hero gaining the token that has me. I guess the group can play it either way depending on how they translate it.


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"Bide your time and hold out hope."

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#16 griton

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:20 AM

Update: FAQ 1.3 States that Soothing Insight can not be given to a hero that is knocked out.


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#17 MadBat

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 12:24 PM

They did address the point that it couldn't be given to a downed hero...

But they said nothing of removing it from a downed hero to recover 1hp and 1stam.

Also nothing about adjacent effects like when discarding the token returns 1hp/1stam to all adjacent heroes.

If ur adjacent to the said downed hero then what??



#18 Steve-O

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:37 PM

They did address the point that it couldn't be given to a downed hero...

But they said nothing of removing it from a downed hero to recover 1hp and 1stam.

Also nothing about adjacent effects like when discarding the token returns 1hp/1stam to all adjacent heroes.

If ur adjacent to the said downed hero then what??

 

KO'd heroes cannot use abilities of any kind, so they certainly cannot use an ability that lets them discard the insight token for some effect.  That much is not even in dispute.  The question was mainly about whether a KO'd hero can receive the insight token if he didn't have it already, and now the FAQ has clarified that it's a "no."

 

As for being adjacent to the KO'd hero; it doesn't matter because the KO'd hero - the one with the insight token - is the one who would need to use the ability, and he can't do so, as above.

 

Now, if a standing hero had the insight token and a KO'd hero was adjacent, that would be more interesting.  I'd be inclined to say the KO'd hero gets the healing effects and stands up, personally.



#19 Kunzite

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:56 PM

Now, if a standing hero had the insight token and a KO'd hero was adjacent, that would be more interesting.  I'd be inclined to say the KO'd hero gets the healing effects and stands up, personally.

 

I am pretty sure the "when an ability would give a hero any health the KOed hero is revived" applies here. Have fun with one heart! ^.~


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#20 MadBat

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:58 AM

KO'd heroes cannot use abilities of any kind, so they certainly cannot use an ability that lets them discard the insight token for some effect.  That much is not even in dispute.  The question was mainly about whether a KO'd hero can receive the insight token if he didn't have it already, and now the FAQ has clarified that it's a "no."

The KO hero is not the one that needs to do the skill.

The prophet can forcibly take the token from the downed hero with his skill and give it to any other hero.

That would still trigger the heal effect if he gives it to himself while being adjacent to the downed hero.

 

I did formulate my previous post badly, as both my phrase were about direct heal from another hero.

But like you and Kunzite said, the hero would get revived with 1hp.






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