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#61 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:33 PM

Tau Drones have a mind, just no soul.  Kind of like Necrons, I'd think.  



#62 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:57 PM

They have sophisticated moving bits that process information. They're computers. Do Force Weapons attack that?

 

BTW they should also affect Land Raiders if this is the case, esp. because LRs have actual organic parts.

 

At least formerly Necrons had a "spirit," I think. Or am misremembering something?



#63 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 03:15 PM

I am fuzzy as to whether or not Necrons have souls.  I mean, at one point the C'tan were eating them, but I'm not sure if they still have them. 

 

Good point about the Land Raider.  The most accurate source to go to would probably be the old GW Rogue Trader rulebooks, as that's where force weapons come from IIRC.  Mine are in storage so I can't check as to whether or not they affected vehicles back then.



#64 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:33 PM

Just checked it, in RT Force Weapons worked just fine against vehicles...



#65 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 06:14 PM

The question is how to translit this. vehicles don't have a Willpower score, and an Opposed Test vs. WP0 doesn't seem right...



#66 Terraneaux

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 07:27 PM

To be fair, that was back before you had the pseudo-psychic power insta-kill on the force weapons.  

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that the force weapon + psy rating to pen and damage shnouldn't work against vehicles.



#67 Cifer

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 08:05 PM

Specifically regarding the Titan example: Anyone who doesn't Ward a machine that expensive against warp attacks deserves what he gets.



#68 Drachdhar

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:27 PM

Considering Void Shields, I was referring to the existing rules for Titans, in the only W40k RPG that has em... Ie Deathwatch if I remember correctly. There each layer of Void Shield absorbed a set amount of dmg each turn, think it was 40 or 50. Now a Titan has a few layers of Void Shields, depending on make and model. So yes, Force Storm with Aegis flattens em pretty fast.

 

And then we can go to the closest thing in BC, The Auruntaur(or some such) in Tome of Fate, or that Slaaneshi daemon engine in Tome of Excess, or that badass Daemon Engine in Tome of Blood. All of those are mentioned to be almost Titan size anyway and a Force Storm + Aegis would flatten them in an instant.

 

 

And with regards to Force Weapons vs Vehicles, against normal vehicles no extra dmg test possible. Against daemon engines, sure thing. Granted the bonus to dmg and Pen from Psy-Rating would still be there, since that is a "sharpening" effect IMO.

On the other hand, one could rule that the Force effect is just a massive amount of killing energy being released, in which case it would work against vehicles and other soulless thinga'ma'bobs... And not something that cuts the spirit of the target...

 

But then again, in most RPGs we have to live with slight inconsistencies like this. DnD Halfling Rogue with daggers vs Dragon and Backstabs, rules-wise perfectly legal - does it make sense, hells no. Friend of mine killed an Ancient Dragon that way, granted if I was GM it would never have happened.

 

//Necrons are completely soulless. They are machines pure and simple, sometimes sentient and all that jazz, but still machines. Its partially why the Ad-Mech considers them such abominations, no "Machine-Spirit". All their souls were munched by the C'tan during the Biotransference. Actually they used to be even more soulless than that back in 3rd edition, they were back then basically the inventors of the Pariah gene.



#69 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:12 PM

It doesn't flatten them. (Well it might, but it is not clearly stated how they work.)

 

What it says is that the void shield stays up until it is brought down.

 

It does _not_ say that excess damage from the attack goes through past it (which is exactly how force fields function, since they block _attacks_ and not _hits_. If you hit a force field with a full auto burst, if you Overload it, some of the shots do not fly through and hit the target).

 

In other words, your Force Storm will blast the shield and overload it.

 

Then you have to fire another Force Storm to overload the second shield.

 

Only THEN can you attack the Titan itself.

 

(Which BTW is how ship void shields function in Rogue Trader as well, which is why I am pretty sure about this.)

 

BTW Khorne Daemon Engines are immune to psychic powers, period.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 15 January 2014 - 09:14 PM.


#70 Drachdhar

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 04:06 PM

Actually Void Shields discounts hits, and since Force Storm does multiple hits... 1-2 hits per layer of Void Shield. And that is how it works in RT as well. 

Macrocannons are capable of multiple hits up to their Strength number, and if you put in a good Broadside you might smash through every layer of Void Shield. Say you get in 3 hits with one Macrobattery/Broadside and the ship you're firing on has Void Shields with rating 2, one hit still gets through to do dmg. And every other weapon your vessel fires that same turn will also go through. Just check the example on p.221 Rogue Trader Core.

 

Granted, the dmg from hits on that hits the Void Shield does not carry over. So for example one hit does 37 dmg and the next does 35 - enough to collapse the first layer in total. Then the next layer takes 1 or 2 more hits. If you fire a Force Storm with 10 hits, thats still 6 hits that go straight through - with Warp Weapon that would be some major dmg on said Titan, with Psy Rating 10 190-250 dmg. 

 

Yeh those Khorne machines are imba that way... Argument still valid though vs the rest of the Titanesque Daemon Engines.



#71 Drachdhar

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

Ie hits are not totalled for dmg... A full auto burst of four hits counts as four individual attacks when it comes to dmg.

 

Unless it's a Macrocannon, but even then it is after counting away hits for Void Shields...



#72 Fgdsfg

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:27 AM

Time for a minor necro.

For vehicles, I'd just judge that half the PR applies to the Force Weapon for the purpouse of resolving the attack. For warded vehicles (as most Imperial or chaos vehicles above a certain value or application would no doubt be), I'd assign a Willpower value based on the intricacies of the ward, again for the purpose of resolving the attack.

 

However, was there a consensus on how to effectively solve the issues of Psychic Barrages and Psychic Storms? Or should one simply nerf the amount of damage powers that are classified as these do?


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Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#73 BrotharTearer

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:26 PM

There's nothing wrong with Barrages/Storms. It's damage scaling that becomes the issue. As evident in Force Storm.



#74 Fgdsfg

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 07:21 PM

There's nothing wrong with Barrages/Storms. It's damage scaling that becomes the issue. As evident in Force Storm.

So, nerf individual powers then, I presume?


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#75 FieserMoep

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:58 AM

Force Storms are mighty. Yes, you could argue that they scale faster than any other psypower but that is just a nuisance.

In the end Psykers are intended to be powerfull. In fact overpowered by fluff. That is what they are about - being overpowered. If you, as a GM allow a psyker to be part of the group my opinion is that you accepted one character to become overpowered. He has the dangers of his powers though when he becomes stronger they get for some powers neglectable. That is also part of being a psyker. The stronger you get the more reliable you are.

 

I as a GM hence only allow a Psyker after the group agreed that he will most likely outshine the others in some or more ways. Also I do only allow them if the campaign wont affected by him to a degree where it would be broken.

 

Nerfing some powers makes no sense for me. What do you target with the Nerf? That his power is now only as powerful as a heavy bolter though his psy-rating of 5-6 shows a quite decent and powerful being? We are speaking about the psykers, the WH40k epitome of a "Wizard" that basically also "cheats" in fluff constantly.


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#76 Keffisch

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:08 AM

I allow it as well in its original form and the Magister (Psy rating 7, WP 64) in the group that I'm running is certainly powerful, but, we all feel that he is quite balanced compared to the others. They also serve various roles within the warband and the Magister is clearly the "wizard" master of the arcane.

 

Note, he is also the only Psyker.



#77 FieserMoep

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:22 AM

In my group the Psyker is certainly the strongest PC in the field of raw power and hence combat with some pretty nasty utility from several schools. But the group is fine with that. Imho a PnP is no MMO where you have to balance every class because some 12-years-old will cry. A PnP is a group activity and, just like in any group, there are people that can some things just better than others. And we use this theme also in our PnP party. Yes, the Psyker can get absurdly strong if he wants to but that does not devalue the other PCs.

 

Everyone of them is proficient and, to a degree, they also take some of their pride from achieving things as a human (With some gifts certainly) without resorting to the arcane powers of the warp. Take the Khorne devotee we have, he is pretty suspicious about the Psyker, every balancing on the thin line to open hatred though he views him as a tool. When things get nasty he still knows that he is a formidable if not exceptional warrior that achieves great deeds for his god. The fact that the psiker just blasted a battle-tank is because of cheating. Yep, that is what psykers do. Cheating. Or how do you explain resorting to the powers of emotion to break the laws of the physical world?

 

It is a bit like the Avengers. Everyone of them is a hero but sometimes they just say. "We have a Hulk."

Thats how the Psyker works in our group. If the ***** hits the fan really hard they "play" the Psyker-going-nuts-card and are glad they have him. On the other side he is not perfect in any case and that his power came with a cost. Every PC is a valuable character with his own story but when they assemble to fight a greater enemy (something they do constantly) there is always that guy/Hulk that plays ping-pong with a god. But did you see tony stark being jealous of that? Did Thor cry like a baby for how overpowered he is? Everyone is a hero, threat them like that and give everyone his spotlight where they can shine. If the psyker annihilated something really big in one turn. Okay. But that does not mean the Khorne Devotee cant feel awesome after he won a Hellblade by defeating a Herald of Khorne in a "fair" duel.


Edited by FieserMoep, 30 April 2014 - 09:27 AM.


#78 BrotharTearer

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:56 PM

An important element for a healthy group is self-containment. Just because you CAN take Force Storm doesn't mean you have to. It's possible to make a psyker that's not "overpowered", or atleast not much more powerful in a certain situation by some non-psyker in that same situation.

 

Interestingly nowadays I only make my psykers human. I find sorcerers too well-rounded with all the tools they get from being Astartes. I really hate it when people take the Sorcerer archetype and then build it like a Chosen. I also like the Corpse Conversion talent, which just so happens to have human as a prereq. And did I mention I like a lot of corruption when I play psykers? It's fun and flavourful. And allows you quick access to Wind of Chaos, the killer of hordes (and everything else, especially non-effective AP), and the bane of your melee-focused warband members.


Edited by BrotharTearer, 30 April 2014 - 06:04 PM.


#79 Annaamarth

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:34 PM

Corruption improves fate points and provides Gifts.  I'm not sure who doesn't want more corruption, at least until they get to 81.

 

Then again, I like using playing a "buff" psyker, where you improve your own capabilities or the capabilities of others.  Coincidentally, this also lets you turn another player into an anti-psyker bomb with the right powers.  Hilarity ensues.

 

Me: "Here, have Warptime. And Host of Fiends."

Chosen: "Hey, thanks!"

later...

 

Chosen (FIghting Ultramarines): "I charge the Librarian!"

GM: "Okay."

Me: "I Focus Hatestorm through the Chosen."

Chosen: "Wait, what?"

 

Mass combat ensues, with much bloodthirst and no retreat on either side.  The Chosen was not amused, but the Librarian ended up frenzying.  It was determined that he could not use psychic powers.

 

Me: "I start Focusing for Sunder the Veil."

GM: "Wait, what?"

 

End result- Bloodletters start spawning, chaos, damage, and mass death ensue, no escapes, Just as Planned.

 

Edit: I should make it clear that my Chosen ally came out of that just fine.  He didn't need to worry about psychic phenomena and the spawning bloodletters ruined many ultrasmurf days.


Edited by Annaamarth, 30 April 2014 - 08:39 PM.

RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#80 BrotharTearer

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 04:48 PM

Corruption improves fate points and provides Gifts.  I'm not sure who doesn't want more corruption, at least until they get to 81.

 

Those who are afraid of reaching a gift threshold with failing corruption.






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