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#41 Balenorn

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:49 AM

 

+60/-60 is the maximum allowed positive or negative value to a test.

 

So if you have a total of +90 to a test, and -20 to the test, you would be at +70, reduced down to +60.

 

Same goes for negatives so -70 to acquire a Unique item, and you have no bonus, its -60 effective. It starts at -70 because you can get many positive modifiers.

 

Wait. Doesn't this mean that acquiring a good-craftsmanship unique item would have the same difficulty as acquiring a common-craftsmanship one? And acquiring 1 of them would have the same difficulty as acquiring 2?

 

 

Yes mechanics wise it does, but this is where I'd expect the GM to say ..sorry you were unsuccessful.. if the person attempting it has a 01 roll to make to succeed. 


Edited by Balenorn, 19 November 2013 - 05:49 AM.


#42 BrotharTearer

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:10 PM

The GM can always say the item isn't available where you are, too.



#43 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:14 PM

This distrurbs me slightly. :)

 

Maybe the idea was that you have to bring it UP to -60 to be able to acquire something in the first place (meaning you could only get a common-craftsmanship version of a Unique item, or a couple of poor-craftsmanship ones)



#44 Annaamarth

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 11:24 PM

Remember that you can trade items you already have to get a bonus on an acquisition test.

 

I have always treated the +60/-60 limit as a final limit after all modifiers have been put into place, applied to the characteristic in question.  This should mean that if I want to trade some damaged suits of armour taken from the corpses of the Dark Angel Deathwing (treat as a 50-100 sets poor-quality Terminator armour) in exchange for a Warhound Titan from the the vaults of Forge Castir, I can do that.  There might still be some favours involved, but hey- what are compacts for?

 

Note: No, I have not slaughtered the entire Deathwing, nor have I acquired a Titan.  Yet.  This example was used to show how opposing edge cases can balance out to a relatively sane value.  Also, I apologize for the digression, as this only peripherally relates to the Force Storm case.


Edited by Annaamarth, 09 December 2013 - 11:25 PM.

RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#45 BrotharTearer

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:07 AM

I have always treated the +60/-60 limit as a final limit after all modifiers have been put into place, applied to the characteristic in question.  

 

It's the limit of the sum of all modifiers, BEFORE you test against your characteristic +/- modifier sum.



#46 Annaamarth

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:45 AM

I'm confused- that's what I meant to say, but I think my version of the statement was not entirely complete.  Here's the intent of what I said illustrated in a couple of examples.

 

Example: I'm testing Infamy to acquire something, and my infamy is 125 (the GM has a very high ascension threshold).  The modifiers to acquire it are -85, and the GM says "okay, roll for it."  Applied modifier is limited to -60, so I need to roll a (125-60=65) a 65 or less.  I roll a 60 and get the best craftsmanship unique terminator armour once worn by Horus himself.

 

Alt. Example: I'm testing Willpower to get up in the morning.  The GM rules that it's a stupidly easy task at +100, but only a +60 is applied to the test.  My Willpower is 15 (I'm playing a lethargic teenager in an emo stage), so I need to roll a 75 or better to get up.  I roll 85 and stay in bed all day.

 

Is that what you are saying, BT?  I think I may need to rephrase- "I have always treated the limit as a final limit after all modifiers have been put in place, to the modifier finally applied to the characteristic in question" reads more clearly.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#47 BrotharTearer

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

The thing with that first example is that I'm fairly certain you can't acquisition something if the final modifier is lower than -60.

 

Second example is silly. There's no need to test for something as trivial as getting up in the morning. And if he does want you to in that sort of situation, you just fail and stay in bed as you said. That's the issue with low willpower, eh?



#48 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 07:19 PM

The thing with that first example is that I'm fairly certain you can't acquisition something if the final modifier is lower than -60.

 

 

 

This makes sense, but it's not stated anywhere.



#49 BrotharTearer

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 06:39 PM

 

The thing with that first example is that I'm fairly certain you can't acquisition something if the final modifier is lower than -60.

 

 

 

This makes sense, but it's not stated anywhere.

 

 

Yeah, it's probably a house rule adapted from the Wrought for Purpose daemon weapons crafting rules to avoid abuses and ****. -70 modifier or less on that and it just can't be done, no matter how high your tech-use might be.

 

There is however a rule that states that if the final modifier ends up at 0 or less, an item is impossible to get. Just as something above 100 is automatic. But that's laughable if you're in some kind of crazy game where people have 100+ Infamy. Straight-up unbalanced for gameplay, assuming ordinary rules are in play. Everything short of the most rarest stuff is an automatic get.


Edited by BrotharTearer, 22 December 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#50 Annaamarth

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 11:28 PM

Bro- I was being deliberately silly to make a point- the point being that stupidly easy stuff caps at a +60 value of stupidly easy applied to the stat.  Getting up in the morning was my deliberately silly example of stupidly easy.

 

And the lethargic teenager failed for the lulz.

 

Also- please don't use phrases like 'most rarest.'  'Most' is implicit to 'rarest,' 'best,' 'coolest,' and &c.

 

Many games are expected to go to 100+ infamy, if the GM set a high infamy bar for ascension.  Even then I'd expect a -60 to acquire certain things, and on success require one or more runs to acquire them.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#51 BrotharTearer

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 10:16 PM

There was no point to make. It's a trivial test. If he can't reasonably fail it, no need to test it. It's the same reason you don't need to test Toughness for breathing or Agility for getting your bottle of drink to your mouth.



#52 Tenebrae

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 06:36 AM

Agility for getting your bottle of drink to your mouth.

This can be failed. I've seen it done ;)



#53 Drachdhar

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 03:21 PM

Consider Force Storm with Aegis of Euphadros... Blasting Titans in one round ;)



#54 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:40 AM

This relies hevaily on Warp Weapon affecting vehicles -- something that is not really spelled out.



#55 Drachdhar

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

Warp Weapon ignores armor, melts right through it... And if it isnt spelled out that it does not affect vehicles, then the assumption is that it does affect vehicles. Still have to deal with the Void Shields, which takes like 3 hits or some such.

Why? Because, at least in everything that comes to mind atm, if something is unaffected by something it is always spelled out in the description of the trait, quality, talent etc. Like some psychic powers not affecting Machine, Deamons etc - Bloodboil for example...

 

So yes, Force Storm + Aegis of Euphadros flattens titans in short order. Also the only way to approach Alpha level stuff flavor-wise in the game. Abusers should be punished though.



#56 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:51 PM

There have been numerous disputes on these forums about the Warp Weapon vs. vehicles issue, and also the related issues of Force Weapons vs. vehicles. (BC doesn't have rules for vehicles to begin with, so we have to assume rules for other games.)

 

The problem with Warp Weapon vs. vehicles is that the armour on a vehicle may very well be thicker than the weapon  attacking it is long (admittedly this is an issue with melee weapons mainly) and so the Warp Weapon quality should be irrelevant. Your Warp Weapon knife can't get anywhere near anything that matters in the vehicle to begin with.

 

BTW if Void Shields work approximately as fields do (see this is something that isn't spelled out) you will not be able to take one down with 3 hits, or any number of hits, because they affect attacks, not hits. Your Force Storm will take down the first Void Shield and stop.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 10 January 2014 - 12:55 PM.


#57 Terraneaux

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:37 PM

Traditionally in the TT, Force Weapons have not affected vehicles.  At least since 3e; does anyone who has better than my fuzzy recollection of 2e and earlier know any different?

 

Warp Weapons?  Who the heck knows.  Some of them (like Impossibly Sharp) should probably cut through vehicle armor.  Others, like the weapons that are just supposed to damage your opponent's soul, might not work.  Case by case?



#58 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:18 PM

If Force Weapons don't affect vehicles (which I agree makes no sense -- what is the Opposed Willpower check against?), should they affect Necrons and other roboty things?



#59 Tenebrae

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 04:14 AM

Well, Necrons aren't vehicles, now are they.

 

Indeed they have spirits - and a Willpower, so I'd argue Force Weapons work just fine against them



#60 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 07:53 AM

They're machines, which is the same thing as a vehicle in this respect. Albeit yes though they have  no souls they have a vaguely defined "spirit." Right?

 

But then  what about wraiths and such? Tau Drones? They have a Willpower stat but no soul or mind, really. They are explicity robots.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 11 January 2014 - 07:54 AM.





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