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#21 Korrh

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:24 AM

Sure. That's an email chain, so pls read it from the bottom up.

 

 

On 2013-06-02, at 6:50 PM, Tim Huckelbery <thuckelbery@fantasyflightgames.com> wrote:

No worries Player2. Technically, no there are no modifiers other than ones the power calls out. Some groups feel that makes some powers too, well, powerful though, so you can try adding in modifiers as if it was a regular shooting attack, but this may swing too far the other way (this is my experience, for what it's worth). Given psykers can potentially kill themselves when using their ranged attack (versus a gunman who isn't too worried about his weapon killing him), I've been fine with allowing psykers to not have any normal modifiers to their "shots." 

 

Is your group having problems with psykers being too powerful when hurling Warp-blasts around? Let me know; I'd love to hear the group's experiences. 

Tim Huckelbery

RPG Producer

Fantasy Flight Games

thuckelbery@fantasyflightgames.com

Visit us at http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/

 

 

 

On May 29, 2013, at 8:31 PM, Player2 wrote:

 

Hi Tim,

 

I play Black Crusade with Player1 and appreciate you taking the time to answer our questions.  Unfortunately even with your response we're still debating.  Could you please help settle the issue for us?

 

When using psychic powers of the Psychic Bolt category, should the Focus Power test be modified by any and all Combat Circumstances ( p. 245 ) that normally affect Ballistic Skill tests, in particular ones such as:

 

1. Shooting into Melee combat

 

2. Size of enemy

 

3. Range (point blank, short, long, extreme, etc)

 

4. Darkness / Fog, Mist, Shadow or Smoke

 

5. Prone / Stunned / Unaware

 

6. Weather

 

Thanks in advance for your help in clarifying the issue.

 

Cheers,

Player2

 


Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tim
 Huckelbery <thuckelbery@fantasyflightgames.com
>
Date: Sun, May 26, 2013 at 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Fantasy Flight Games [Rules Questions] - Black Crusade
To: Player1
 

Hi Player1! Treat psychic powers that attack like a ranged weapon way the same way as you would a ranged attack. Unless the power says the psyker needs to make a BS test to hit the target, though, there are no modifiers to hit on the attack - if the power works, it is treated like a successful BS test, with the DoS worked out as per page 209. 

 

Tim Huckelbery

RPG Producer

Fantasy Flight Games

thuckelbery@fantasyflightgames.com

Visit us at http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/

 

 

 

On May 23, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Player1 wrote:

 

Message from:
Player1


Rule Question:
Hi,

Question is, do we treat psychic attacks as ranged ones, regarding bonuses?

Three teammates are engaged in melee combat with single Hulking enemy. Psyker, being 10m away uses Doombolt (Psychic Barrage). Heretek, staying next to Psyker, uses semi-auto attack on the enemy.
According to the rules
- Psyker gets his PR*5 bonus to Willpower to use Doombolt and that’s it. Attack can be dodged like a usual ranged attack.
- Heretek gets Size (+10), Short Range (+10), Shooting into melee combat (-20). Attack can be dodged like a usual ranged attack.

Am I right?

Does Psyker get any bonuses for the size of enemy? Does he get penalty for using power into melee combat?
Are bonuses for Helpless targets applied only to Weapon Skill tests? What about Psykers/ranged attacks?

Thank you!


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#22 Routa-maa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:33 AM

Thanks :)


Muutokselle annamme Elämän, Elämälle annamme Muutoksen.

#23 Korrh

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

No probs.
And yes, Force Storm is a cool toy for psyker. For the new shiny psyker, without mental disorders, drug addictions etc  :P


Edited by Korrh, 29 October 2013 - 10:42 AM.


#24 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:58 AM

Man if you can fire straight into a swirling melee combat, that's one accurate storm of bolts.



#25 Korrh

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:03 AM

Someone posted a note here that once a Psyker one-shotted The Great Unclean One with Force Storm. Might be true  ;) 



#26 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

That's exactly why I asked if the +60/-60 applies to Focus Power Tests.

 

I still think it does. p. 241 says "a test," not "a WS or BS test," and that's been the rule since Dark Heresy, I think (+/-30 then). And is why nowhere, in any printed material, is there an example of a test at less than -60 or more than +60. EDIT: it's definitely the case in Deathwatch, since it says "difficulty is determined by matching with the following table" or suchlike, and the table goes down to -60 and up to +60. It's hevaily implied, at any rate.

 

EDIT: EXCEPT!!!! there is a -70 for obtaining Unique items. Hmm.

 

Actually it's alluded to again in the creating daemon weapons section.

 

Otherwise the power is absurdly powerful and there must be a typo with the "3".


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 October 2013 - 01:18 PM.


#27 Korrh

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:44 PM

I think +/-60 is more of a game-designer guideline than a strict rule. I mean, BC is designed pretty well to give you less than 60 modifiers (physical  or  psychic attacks) almost all the time. And by the time players can add +60 to their test it wouldn't matter.

Think about it - 10PR*5 +10(for Psy-Focus) = +60 to Focus Power test. That's a lot of XP down the PR talents. Pushing might kill you, so I'm not considering it. By the time your psyker gets there, +10 or +20 to Focus power test wouldn't matter much. Or that will be a one-trick-psyker.



#28 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

I think Huckelbery pulled his response out of his nether area, because the reply makes no sense. :) Or maybe I can't make it make sense.

 

Even a Psy Rating 3 Bound Psyker is carrying a weapon that can, on Fettered, with no risk, shoot into combat (unlike anybody else's), never runs out of ammo (unlike everybody else's), and can hit fast-moving targets with extreme ease (unlike everybody else's). When he is blind. When the target is camouflaged. (Somehow camo cloaks don't work.) Size makes no difference -- an equal number of bolts will hit a fly and a planet. Your chances to hit a charging Genestealer and a rock are the same. (The weapon can still be dodged though, for some reason!)

 

Moreover, he can presumably fire into melee with no chance of hitting  friendlies. Which raises the question, again, of how the thing can be dodged, since it does not seem to matter what is in front of it.

 

Everybody else needs special talents to overcome all this stuff, but not the psyker!

 

It's expecially the chamo cloak bit here that gets me. That think over there -- in pitch darkness -- I can  barely see it... BLAM!

 

(OK, he doesn't get aim or range bonuses. hmm)

 

(Moreover, this is absolutely not how Smite works in Deathwatch.)


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 October 2013 - 02:18 PM.


#29 Korrh

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:26 PM

Well, same goes the other way - Psyker has the same chance to hit an uber-huge sleeping daemon in the middle of the day, having no bonuses for it. In BC psykers are (pardon for the reference) more like Professor X than Cyclops. Different physics for immaterium and all that. Just imagine that chaos guys do it a bit different than guys from the other side.

Yes, rules for Powers in BC and OW are different from older lines. DH2e was somewhat in between (and I love Dodge(Wp) against spells).



#30 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:44 PM

Maybe this balances out with no suppressing fire, no overwatch, no called shots.



#31 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

Which also makes it impossible to shoot past cover for no logical reason.

 

I don't think FFG thought this out.

 

EDIT: aha, a barrage or storm fired into melee will still hit friendlies.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 October 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#32 Zenoth16

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:00 AM

EDIT: aha, a barrage or storm fired into melee will still hit friendlies.

 

Warp did it!



#33 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:02 AM

I decided to at least try it.

 

I still think there must be a typo with this power.

 

Maybe it's as simple as telekinetic powers not ignoring the Daemonic Trait. (which is the problem with the Great Unclean One).



#34 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

Just to add another element to the discussion, don't forget if you have unnatural WP like 1K sons, that adds to your DoS when doling out the barrage.



#35 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:07 PM

OK I realize that BC needs a "crushing tanks" psychic power, but this one does seem silly.

 

I can't help but think that Daemonic is supposed to apply to it, since it is literally kinetic force.

 

There must be some something that makes it less obviously better than every other psychic attack.



#36 BrotharTearer

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:35 PM

Force Storm isn't really balanced at higher PR. It scales too fast compared to other powers. Flat caling damage is much better than +PRd10 of other 'big' powers as they can still roll low. I'd suggest lowering it to 2x or something. It'll still be absurd even then, though, at higher PR.

 

It's Blast powers that are area based, by the way.

 

And no, ranged combat modifiers do not apply to psychic powers. The [something] Bolt powers may mirror the single, semi and full-auto mechanics, but they are not Ballistic Skill attacks and therefore not affected by such combat modifiers.



#37 Tenebrae

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:26 PM

Well that does help things then. That means that a Psy Rating 10 WP70 unbound psyker pushing  with force storm actually cannot get his PR-mandated 15 maximum possible hits, because his maximum chance is 130 (70+60). On average he will get 8 or 9.

Nope, his base is 70(+5*PR), the 5*PR is not a modifier, it's the default value and so unaffected by the +/- 60 cap. Sorry.



#38 Balenorn

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:30 PM

+60/-60 is the maximum allowed positive or negative value to a test.

 

So if you have a total of +90 to a test, and -20 to the test, you would be at +70, reduced down to +60.

 

Same goes for negatives so -70 to acquire a Unique item, and you have no bonus, its -60 effective. It starts at -70 because you can get many positive modifiers.

 

So no matter how many positives or negatives you do not get above or below.

 

And Tenebrae if it states in the rules he/she gets a +5 to the test by PR rank, then that IS a modifier just like Aim is a flat bonus modifier, or does it say it increases his WP by 5 per rank?

 

You can safely assume that anything in any of the WH40K lines is affected by the max/min modifier rule, unless they have a talent that stops it...like max -30 to the roll. 


Edited by Balenorn, 14 November 2013 - 07:09 PM.


#39 Balenorn

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:00 PM

In most cases, a Focus Power Test is a Willpower Test,
modified by the difficulty of the power being used, and the Psy
Rating of the psyker, which grants a +5 bonus to the test for
every point of Psy Rating the psyker uses for that power.
 
So yes it is a modifier, and yes it is affected by the maximum modifier rules.
 
So Bogi_Khaosa is correct, the theoretical max is 70 (WP)+60 (bonuses) for a score of 130.
 
Don't forget though, that unnatural WP adds extra degrees of success to a test also.

Edited by Balenorn, 14 November 2013 - 07:10 PM.

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#40 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:39 AM

+60/-60 is the maximum allowed positive or negative value to a test.

 

So if you have a total of +90 to a test, and -20 to the test, you would be at +70, reduced down to +60.

 

Same goes for negatives so -70 to acquire a Unique item, and you have no bonus, its -60 effective. It starts at -70 because you can get many positive modifiers.

 

Wait. Doesn't this mean that acquiring a good-craftsmanship unique item would have the same difficulty as acquiring a common-craftsmanship one? And acquiring 1 of them would have the same difficulty as acquiring 2?


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 18 November 2013 - 11:39 AM.





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