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crescentus and false echo


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#1 Cpeerson2000

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:21 AM

Can you use crescentus and false echo on the same rezzed ice during an encounter?

#2 Saturnine

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:56 AM

I'm pretty sure I saw someone post on BGG that Lukas (designer for the game) confirmed this was possible.



#3 Cpeerson2000

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:31 AM

Yea I found it on pg 17-18 of rulebook. Just wish they had put "pass" in the glossary.

#4 ODie

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:14 PM

So, lets see if I have this right.

 

After you break all the subroutines (required for Crescentus) you're still encountering the Ice, and can use the paid ability on Crescentus (in the same window as using paid abilities on Icebreaker programs: step [3.1] in the Timing Structure of a Run in the FAQ v1.3). Then move on to step [3.2], no subroutines are unbroken to resolve here and so on to (either) [2] or [4], but before these commence, you have passed a piece of unrezzed ice, which is the condition required to trigger False Echo, so you can bounce the ice back into HQ. Correct?

 

If MU were an issue, I think there's also the opportunity to a) break all subroutines, b) activate (trashing) Crescentus, and c) activate (/trashing) Clone Chip to get a False Echo from the heap installed, all in [3.1] in preparation for passing the ice before progressing to step [2]/[4], whereby False Echo can be used. Still seem correct?

 

Is it worth it in a deck? Hmm, time to try that one out, perhaps...



#5 Saturnine

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:53 AM

You know, after looking at the cards again, I'm not sure how the timing is supposed to work. Crescentus is a paid ability, so it should be used in a step in which you can use paid abilities; but it's not clear that there's some sort of "time limit" on the card. Presumably, I could break all the subroutines on a piece of ice, but decide to use Crescentus next turn, which doesn't seem right to me. But the issue is that False Echo is a conditional ability, so it would be used immediately after its triggering condition is met, which should be somewhere between passing the ice and but before approaching the next ice/the server and thus before the next opportunity to use paid abilities (such as Crescentus and Clone Chip). I think I might send this in to Lukas again, because the timing of this is rather occult.



#6 toannguyen

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 04:06 PM

You know, after looking at the cards again, I'm not sure how the timing is supposed to work. Crescentus is a paid ability, so it should be used in a step in which you can use paid abilities; but it's not clear that there's some sort of "time limit" on the card. Presumably, I could break all the subroutines on a piece of ice, but decide to use Crescentus next turn, which doesn't seem right to me. But the issue is that False Echo is a conditional ability, so it would be used immediately after its triggering condition is met, which should be somewhere between passing the ice and but before approaching the next ice/the server and thus before the next opportunity to use paid abilities (such as Crescentus and Clone Chip). I think I might send this in to Lukas again, because the timing of this is rather occult.

 

 

The timing is:

 

3. Encounter Ice.

3.1 Icebreakers interact with ice. (Break all subroutines)

3.1 While in 3.1, you can tutor and install False Echo and Crescentus. 

3.1 Still in the same timing window, use Crescentus. All conditions on Crescentus are met.

3.2 After this step is when False Echo will go off, because the condition for False Echo is met. It's not a paid ability so it is forced to happen. You then decide to pay the cost of trashing False Echo.


Edited by toannguyen, 06 November 2013 - 04:07 PM.


#7 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:21 PM

Lukas has ruled that crescentus needs to be used immediately after breaking.

#8 Saturnine

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:11 AM

Thanks for the breakdown, toannguyen. For some reason I didn't think about how it was possible (and necessary) to use Crescentus in step 3.1.



#9 ProfMoriarty

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:16 PM

Sorry for the necro, but this appears to be the only thread on this topic.

 

I have a follow up:  What if the corp decides to re-rez the ice, instead of putting it in HQ?  Looking at the timing diagram, we are still in step 3.1: use icebreaker and/or paid abilities.  We broke the subroutines, we used Crescentus, we used False Echo as paid abilities.  The corp decides to re-rez instead of put back in HQ.  Moving on the diagram, we go to Step 3.2: resolve all unbroken subroutines on the ICE.  Well, it's been re-rezzed, thus, since cards have no memory, those subroutines are not broken any more.

 

Now, I can see that you could say you aren't using the paid abiiity step in 3.1 to use False Echo - you're really using it in step 2.1, when you are approaching the NEXT piece of ICE, or, if this were the last piece of ice, you are using step 4.1's paid ability opportunity to False Echo.  Is this latter interpretation the correct one?  if so, can the runner (were they crazy enough) arbitrarily state "I'm using False Echo in step 3.1, so I'll encounter it again if you rez it again"?



#10 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 02:53 AM

You're not in step 3.1. Crescentus and False Echo do not have paid abilities, they do not follow the format [Cost] : [Effect]. They are Conditional Triggered abilities. They don't trigger inside a paid ability window, but when the correct condition is met (breaking all subs or passing unrezzed ICE).

#11 ProfMoriarty

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:41 AM

Quite right on False Echo.  Crescentus, however, is phrased in the [cost]:[effect] way: trash this card, do this affect.  Then there's a caveat on WHEN you are allowed to pay that cost to achieve that effect.  But, the False Echo part is what was tripping me up.  

 

My mind is still stuck in some mud, given that the ice was rezzed when passed, but becomes unrezzed only if it was passed (and Crescentus used), which seems like you can't use False Echo, because when you passed the ice it was rezzed and you broke all the subroutines.  You didn't pass an unrezzed piece of ice, it became unrezzed AFTER it was passed.



#12 CommissarFeesh

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

Quite right on False Echo.  Crescentus, however, is phrased in the [cost]:[effect] way: trash this card, do this affect.  Then there's a caveat on WHEN you are allowed to pay that cost to achieve that effect.  But, the False Echo part is what was tripping me up.  

 

 

Good point, I misremembered Crescentus - that actually gets used in the same window as breaking.

 

False Echo doesn't really care that you encountered the ICE - False Echo only cares that you are just passed a piece of ICE and it isn't rezzed.






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