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Is there any chance on fixing advanced tie cost? (maybe also bombers and Awings, even change missiles and torpedos rules)


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#1 negroscuro

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:06 AM

Hello,

I am a Spanish veteran player and I always miss advanced tie in tournaments, only is used to field Vader but the 21 points a basic advanced tie cost dissuade all player from using it.

 

Now there is no need of choosing an advanced tie if you want to bring missiles, there are other chances.

 

There is opinion that missiles and torpedoes are not as effective as they should, just one more dice (and negating an extra defense dice when cast at range 3). There are some extra effects for each missile but usually they doesn't worth the points they cost. They are just a one time use things... and 4 o 5 points are a lot.

 

Anyway if you think on field a bomber, Awing or advance tie always comes to this:

 

advanced tie 21 + 4/5 (missile/torpedo)

a wing 17 + 4/5 (missile/torpedo)

bomber 16 + 4/5 (missile/torpedo)

 

 

But people take into account that the 1 or 2 of initiative doesn't guarantee to be able to shot the missiles. So people tendo to choose:

 

advanced tie 23 + 4/5 (missile/torpedo)

a wing 19 + 4/5 (missile/torpedo)

bomber 18 + 4/5 (missile/torpedo)

 

If you don't load those ships with some upgrades and weapons they are not useful, even sometimes that imply to field other ships to have a TL free action or a skill to be able to reroll the attack dice.

In conclusion if you think about how many point do you need, usually you find more trustable to rely on a regular xwing for 21 points or 2 tie fighters for 24 points.

 

Is there any chance to improve/change this?

Is FFG going to do something regarding this? because now we see that Imperial aces expansion is close, but interceptors were a little expensive for an alpha 18 points but now they show an interceptor with 6 initiative and 22 points, they are very good man, but what about those other ships?

 

In fact now we are starting to see that ywings are being replaced for HWK since:

 

ywing 18 + ion turret = 23

HWK 16 + ion turret = 21 but if you want to field a hwk 19 + 5 = 24 then you have a 4 initiative able to give a 12 initiative bonus. Much better isn't it?

:)

 

So... what about something like this?

i5uz.jpg


Edited by negroscuro, 23 October 2013 - 04:12 AM.


#2 Jehan Menasis

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:18 AM

Only solutions at this point would be either a errata that fixes stats on the TIE advanced (unlikely and inelegant) or future upgrade cards with the text  '-TIE Advanced only-' like they did with the interceptor.

 

Otherwise, the TIE Advanced will remain pretty much as it did on the Lore... an extremely rare sight prototype ship.

 

 

Edit: I don't think we'll ever see negative cost cards, since it will be a royal pain in the ass to balance. More likely, 'positive' or 'zero' value cards that improve the cost/performance ratio of the TIE Advanced.


Edited by Jehan Menasis, 23 October 2013 - 04:44 AM.


#3 CrookedWookie

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:37 AM

Short answer is 'no.'  You will likely never see the costs 'fixed.'  What you will see is more cards (Royal Guard Interceptor) that help make ships get more for their money.  

We've talked about an easy A-Wing fix: non-unique title, 0 cost, "A-Wing Mark II," adds the System Upgrade icon to your upgrade bar.  Bam.  A-Wings can now use FCS, sensor jammers, AdvS, whatever else gets added.  It makes them a lot more flexible, without overpowering them.

 

My guess is we'll see something similar happen for the TIE Advanced before too long.  They'll add some tools to make it more WORTH its cost, rather than just lowering the cost.



#4 VanorDM

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:55 AM

They'll add some tools to make it more WORTH its cost, rather than just lowering the cost.


This is the route I hope they go. It would be a much better fix, more elegant and less hamfisted. If they were going to do some sort of ertra on the card itself, they'd almost have to release the cards as some sort of pack that you could get for little to nothing.

But adding in cards that make the problem ships better, this is a much better method.
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#5 CrookedWookie

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

Vanor, I agree with this 200%.

The non-unique ship titles in particular are a genius addition to the game, because they will let them tweak the abilities of a class of ship without having to errata anything.  They could come up with ship titles to add literally any effect, stat change, etc they could think of and it would be elegant because it would simply override the regular rules.

 

If they decide a missile, for example, is overcosted, they are more likely to come up with a Cluster Missile Mk II, or a Concussion Missile Launcher Magazine or something to supplement it or phase it out, than they are to straight up change the cost of it.  Creates a lot less mess.



#6 Goregrimm

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 04:20 PM

I would love to see a zero cost card that would give a boost to the woeful TIE Advanced.

#7 Johdo

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 04:35 PM

Agreed.  I would gladly purchase a "Pilot Pack" that would make some of the less desirable ships more appealing / cost effective without having to re-release the ships again in a fancier package (yes i'm looking at you Imperial Aces).


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#8 onebit

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:22 AM

I have little hope for this, but I'd buy it in a heartbeat.


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#9 TheRealStarkiller

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:02 AM

What would make a T/A better for 0 points?

Do you seriously think about a +1 attack for 0 points?


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#10 Silver leader

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:41 AM

Tie Advanced:

Terror Squadron Pilot: cost- 24, Pilot skill- 5, elite pilot skill, missile proton torpedo

E. C. Nerwal: cost: 25, pilot skill- 6, elite pilot skill, missiles, proton torpedo, Pilot ability: whenever an attack lands on E. C. Nerwal, he may perform a free action on his action bar.

 

Solar Strakes: Tie Advanced only upgrade, cost- 0 adds boost to the action bar and forward 4 and 5 are now green

 

 

A-Wing:

A-Wing Mark II system upgrade: Unique A-wing upgrade: cost-3 points Add a rear firing arc,(pilot skill 3 or higher required) The A-wing may equip a sensor array as well.

 

my 2 cents


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#11 CrookedWookie

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:37 AM

I think you're half right.  I think we'll see a 0 cost title for the A-Wing, Mark II, which adds a System Upgrade icon to their bar. Any of those upgrades could be awesome on an A-Wing.  

don't think we'll ever see a rear fire arc on an A-Wing for one simple reason: it would require new cardboard ship tokens.  You couldn't put Tycho in a Mark II without putting out a brand new Tycho variant that had rear fire arcs marked on the base.  I don't see them ever putting out new ship upgrades that will directly exclude all of the current pilots like that, so I think much like the Royal Guard title, you'll see it add something to the base ship, without changing the base mechanics of it.

 

Rear fire arcs require a physical change to the printing on the ship token, so I think it's unlikely they'll do that.



#12 nimdabew

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:04 AM

Vanor, I agree with this 200%.
The non-unique ship titles in particular are a genius addition to the game, because they will let them tweak the abilities of a class of ship without having to errata anything. They could come up with ship titles to add literally any effect, stat change, etc they could think of and it would be elegant because it would simply override the regular rules.

If they decide a missile, for example, is overcosted, they are more likely to come up with a Cluster Missile Mk II, or a Concussion Missile Launcher Magazine or something to supplement it or phase it out, than they are to straight up change the cost of it. Creates a lot less mess.

Genius:

Tie Advanced Title Only
Cost: 2

Missile Magazine: You may use a secondary weapon twice in one round, and then discard the secondary weapon.

Tie Advanced Title Only
Cost: 0
You may Acquire a target lock after performing a green maneuver.

Tie Advanced Title Only
Cost: 0

You may add the (EPT) to your pilot card.

ETA:
Tie Advanced Title (Unique)
Cost: 2

You may reroll your evade dice once per attack. If you choose to reroll your evade dice, you must reroll all of your dice.

Edited by nimdabew, 05 December 2013 - 11:12 AM.


#13 Bilisknir

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:29 AM

 

Vanor, I agree with this 200%.
The non-unique ship titles in particular are a genius addition to the game, because they will let them tweak the abilities of a class of ship without having to errata anything. They could come up with ship titles to add literally any effect, stat change, etc they could think of and it would be elegant because it would simply override the regular rules.

If they decide a missile, for example, is overcosted, they are more likely to come up with a Cluster Missile Mk II, or a Concussion Missile Launcher Magazine or something to supplement it or phase it out, than they are to straight up change the cost of it. Creates a lot less mess.

Genius:

Tie Advanced Title Only
Cost: 2

Missile Magazine: You may use a secondary weapon twice in one round, and then discard the secondary weapon.

Tie Advanced Title Only
Cost: 0
You may Acquire a target lock after performing a green maneuver.

Tie Advanced Title Only
Cost: 0

You may add the (EPT) to your pilot card.

ETA:
Tie Advanced Title (Unique)
Cost: 2

You may reroll your evade dice once per attack. If you choose to reroll your evade dice, you must reroll all of your dice.

 

 

Those are massively overpowered! Image 2x cluster missile in one turn, or Vader having TL + Focus + Evade/Barrel Roll...

 

If you want a missile magazine, try:

Missile Magazine

Modification

Cost: [Variable]

Restricted: TIE Advanced

Cost of this upgrade is cost of equipped missile minus 1.

When using a missile, do not discard the missile after firing. Instead discard missile magazine. Then aquire a target lock on target of your missile if able.

 

So it gives you a slightly cheaper second missile of the same type, and you keep lock if you didn't kill the target.

 

Not too powerful and quite fun. Not game breaking...


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#14 CrookedWookie

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:52 AM

I've thought about a concussion missile magazine or something similar before.  There are a few ways they could do it - missile tokens where you put the stack on the card and spend them as they're fired...  I also think the way Attack Wing does it is actually fairly elegant.  You fire a torpedo, you put a Disabled token (maybe call it a Reload token) on that card, and then you have to spend an action to clear the token and ready the card for use again.

 

The nice thing is, if the weapon still requires a target lock to use, it puts a pretty hard cap on how badly you could abuse such a card.  Every time it gets used you're talking 2 actions minimum to reuse it - one to Reload, and one to acquire a target lock.


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#15 nimdabew

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:19 PM

Those are massively overpowered! Image 2x cluster missile in one turn, or Vader having TL + Focus + Evade/Barrel Roll...

 

If you want a missile magazine, try:

Missile Magazine

Modification

Cost: [Variable]

Restricted: TIE Advanced

Cost of this upgrade is cost of equipped missile minus 1.

When using a missile, do not discard the missile after firing. Instead discard missile magazine. Then aquire a target lock on target of your missile if able.

 

So it gives you a slightly cheaper second missile of the same type, and you keep lock if you didn't kill the target.

 

Not too powerful and quite fun. Not game breaking...

 

If you started stacking actions like Vader, Marksmen, cluster missile, and magazine, yes that would be a very powerful 4 3 dice attacks. But you are also spending 29 + 4 + 3 + 2 for a total of 38 points on one ship. Add a shield upgrade or something and you are getting into YT territory. I never said the points costs are final, but 2 is a good place to start. It owuld probably be more balanced at 3, but I didn't want to write something "don't discard the first time, but discard the second time" or some other memory type rule. As Buhl has stated several times, X-Wing doesn't have a memory and only relies on current game state to perform rules base triggers. 

 

A discardable title would be pretty cool. Maybe have it as a ship upgrade instead like... Cost: 1/2 or full cost, discard this card instead of the secondary weapon card. That is really interesting.



#16 Khyros

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:33 PM

 



Those are massively overpowered! Image 2x cluster missile in one turn, or Vader having TL + Focus + Evade/Barrel Roll...

 

If you want a missile magazine, try:

Missile Magazine

Modification

Cost: [Variable]

Restricted: TIE Advanced

Cost of this upgrade is cost of equipped missile minus 1.

When using a missile, do not discard the missile after firing. Instead discard missile magazine. Then aquire a target lock on target of your missile if able.

 

So it gives you a slightly cheaper second missile of the same type, and you keep lock if you didn't kill the target.

 

Not too powerful and quite fun. Not game breaking...

 

If you started stacking actions like Vader, Marksmen, cluster missile, and magazine, yes that would be a very powerful 4 3 dice attacks. But you are also spending 29 + 4 + 3 + 2 for a total of 38 points on one ship. Add a shield upgrade or something and you are getting into YT territory. I never said the points costs are final, but 2 is a good place to start. It owuld probably be more balanced at 3, but I didn't want to write something "don't discard the first time, but discard the second time" or some other memory type rule. As Buhl has stated several times, X-Wing doesn't have a memory and only relies on current game state to perform rules base triggers. 

 

A discardable title would be pretty cool. Maybe have it as a ship upgrade instead like... Cost: 1/2 or full cost, discard this card instead of the secondary weapon card. That is really interesting.

 

 

Actually, that's not quite true.  Rebel captive has a memory.  I believe it's the only ability in the game that does right now though.


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#17 Buhallin

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:46 PM

There are actually a number of game elements which require memory in order to function.  Can Turr barrel roll after firing?  Depends on whether he did the same action earlier.  Is a ship destroyed by an equal-PS attacker removed?  Depends on whether it's already attacked that turn.  For base rules and abilities both, there are times you need to know what's gone on previously - you couldn't just walk into the room blind, look at the table, and know everything.

 

Abilities operate on the current game state, but that may include elements of memory.



#18 nimdabew

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:11 PM

You are both right. I was just drawing from some argument in some forgotten rules question that I remember Bulh say ing there was no memory. 






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