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Cave Spider "WEB ABILITIES"


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#1 Aurochi

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

hi all got a question about moving when there a master spider

example:

 

|TA|
|EE|
|ES|
|EE|
|DE|
 
 
T is tomble, A is avric, E is empty space,S is master spider and D is desired location to stop on the move action.
 
considering Tomble want to move to D he spent 4 move speed so does he suffer 3 fatigue because of web, not quite understand it  :wacko:

 



#2 Robin

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM

3 fatigue. One spent each time he leaves a space adjacent to the master Spider. And if he has reached his stamina level, lost fatigue becomes lost health.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#3 Wolftame

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:42 PM

Can he really move if he's out of stamina as you can't voluntary do things that cause you more fatigue than you have stamina?



#4 Robin

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

Yes. He is suffering fatigue from the spider, not spending it voluntarily.
I think you will have that answer in the "FFG sez" thread on BGG forum (and in the wiki).
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#5 Wolftame

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:11 PM

It actually didn't say anywhere I could find in the FAQ, but after rereading the rulebook I agree with your stance. I can't use fatigue to move if I'm out of stamina, but as you said the Web effect is from the Spider so if I have one stamina left I can use that to walk and would suffer one heart damage instead of taking the extra fatigue token.



#6 Robin

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:30 PM

I found this in the BGG wiki :

- Web

Q: Web: Do heroes have to pay one fatigue to move out of each and every square adjacent to the Master Cave Spider during their movement? For example a character attempting to run past a Master Cave Spider in a two square wide corridor (a hallway for instance) would end up paying a total of three fatigue to travel through the three squares adjacent to the spider in order to get completely past it.

A: Yes. Any time a hero moves out of a space adjacent to the master cave spider, he has to suffer 1 fatigue. The master can block up travel paths pretty well like this, as a hero could suffer a lot of fatigue moving past it.

The verb "suffer" being used rather than "spend" does seem to indicate involuntary loss of fatigue.

Edited by Robin, 21 October 2013 - 06:35 PM.

An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#7 Aurochi

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:55 AM

thankz, really appreciate the info  :) , bac to my game then



#8 griton

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:22 AM


The verb "suffer" being used rather than "spend" does seem to indicate involuntary loss of fatigue.

That's actually not the case. Nowhere do the rules mention "spending" fatigue. Even when you voluntarily spend fatigue to gain 1 movement point, the rules still use the term "suffer". "Spend" is a term that most people use on the forum for voluntarily doing anything, but is only mentioned in the rulebook in the context of gold, experience, movement points, and surges.

 

The distinction here is that in the case of a master spider, it is something other than the normal cost of a class skill or suffering fatigue for movement points.

 

The relevant rule is on page 13 of the rulebook:


Heroes voluntarily suffer fatigue in order to use skills or move additional spaces. To suffer fatigue, the player takes the number of fatigue tokens equal to the cost and places them on his Hero sheet. When using skills or moving, a hero may only suffer fatigue up to an amount equal to his Stamina. If any other game effect forces a hero to suffer fatigue in excess of his Stamina, he instead suffers damage equal to the excess fatigue that would have been suffered.

 

Here's where some confusion comes in: The first part of the third sentence ("When using skills or moving") is directly referring to the content of the first sentence, and so while it may seem (if taken out of context) that it would apply in the case of moving past a master spider, it doesn't, and FFG has stated that moving past a master spider may inflict wounds. I believe that FFG has even clarified that some skills which have secondary fatigue costs beyond what's listed in the lower right corner MAY be taken as health if you are at maximum fatigue.


Edited by griton, 22 October 2013 - 08:35 AM.


#9 Robin

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:41 AM

griton, you are right about the wording, my bad.

The rules are indeed ambiguous here.

 

I actually have found FFG's answer in the FAQ (I scanned the "Sez" wiki in vain).

Here it is :

 

 

 

Q: If a hero is adjacent to a master cave spider and he has suffered fatigue equal to his Stamina, can he suffer a damage instead of a fatigue as payment for the spider's Web ability?
A: Yes, the hero would suffer 1 damage if he moves out of his current space.

 


Edited by Robin, 22 October 2013 - 10:41 AM.

An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#10 Steve-O

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 07:59 PM

I believe that FFG has even clarified that some skills which have secondary fatigue costs beyond what's listed in the lower right corner MAY be taken as health if you are at maximum fatigue.

 

If you have a source on that, I'd be much obliged. =)



#11 Varikas

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:43 AM

Ok I see some confusion here so I am going to try to explain how this works.

You CANT use more fatigue than your stamina in 2 things:

a) to activate skills that has the fatigue icon down and right

b) to gain movement points with it

So, in what things could I spend more fatigue than my stamina? (so I would take damage)

a) using skills that DONT have the fatigue icon down and right but they require fatigue (like runic knowledge)

b) using any hero ability or heroic feat (reynhart, karnon etc...)

c) suffering it by monster skills like web, water...

That said, of course all of this has been confirmated with FFG, its not my personal opinion, its only what FFG said.

I hope that helps ;)



#12 Steve-O

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:12 AM

So, in what things could I spend more fatigue than my stamina? (so I would take damage)

a) using skills that DONT have the fatigue icon down and right but they require fatigue (like runic knowledge)

b) using any hero ability or heroic feat (reynhart, karnon etc...)

c) suffering it by monster skills like web, water...

That said, of course all of this has been confirmated with FFG, its not my personal opinion, its only what FFG said.

I hope that helps ;)

 

Once again, source would be appreciated.  The only thing like this I can recall seeing from FFG is the question about the spider's Web ability which Robin quoted above.

 

The rule is that you cannot voluntarily suffer fatigue above Stamina.  For the Cave Spider's web, it has been clarified that the hero is still allowed to move normally, and the fatigue he must suffer for being adjacent to the spider is forced even though the movement itself is voluntary.

 

If someone could provide a link to an official FFG response concerning the rest of this, I'd really appreciate it.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I'd like to see FFG's official response for myself, if I could.



#13 Varikas

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:00 AM

Well...I could copy you the mail that I recived for Justin, but if you still have dudes about it, you could do the question yourself.

The mail is this:

"Hello again Justin, I have a question that I would to clarify with you.
If I understand good, it would be legal to suffer damage insted of fatige in:
Sir Valadir hero ability, Steelhorns hero ability, Reynhart hero ability, Eliam heroic feat and Karnon hero ability and heroic feat. Is that correct?
In summary, you cant get more fatigue that stamina only when you are activating class skills (skills that have the fatigue simbol down and right) or moving with fatigue, is it right?
And also an example about Reflective Ward. If I did 8 damage to a white goblin (2hp) after surges and after all and the OL plays that card, what damage would suffer the hero? 2 or 8? I think that according to your last answer would be 8 but I would want to confirm it."

 

And Justin answers:

 

"Yes, this is a correct assessment.

 
Reflective Ward: You are correct, as it would be 8.
 

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com
"

 

All what I said is cause it has been previously confimed by Justin, if I dont have something clear, first i ask him and after I talk about it hehe ;)



#14 Varikas

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:26 AM

I used to read the post that Robin has in BGG but I dont have time to translate and post there ALL questions that I make to Justin, cause I speak with him every week...

Maybe if you have time and know spanish you could go to spanish forum in www.edgeent.com, there my name is Klass and I have that forum 100% actualiced and all questions there are resolved by Justin.

Also, that forum is very good ordered. He have 5 subforums:

1º) To quest questions, I have created post with the name of all quest and all FAQ of them. Also, if any user has any question about it he only has to go to that quest and post there.

2º) Expansiones: here is where we comment all things about future expansions, ideas, questions...all

3º) Rules: here we has all questions about clases, only clases.

4º) homemade

5º) the general forum to put all other questions.

As I said, if someone make a question that could be logic and I am not 100% sure, I allways make the question to Justin, thats why in my mail I have a mail that only 21 august-17 october I have more that 70 answers...and as you can understand I dont have time to put all of them in robins post at bgg... :P

I dont used to come to this forum, but when I do I usually see questions that has clear answers but, sometimes like now that I see that the answers isnt very clear I try to help a little bit. Thats possible cause in spanish forum I think that is all answered and very good ordered so now the activity of that forum is a little bit down...hehe


Edited by Varikas, 23 October 2013 - 09:29 AM.


#15 griton

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:08 AM

Here's the ruling on Runic Knowledge (the one I was describing specifically): http://boardgamegeek...icial_FAQ#toc11



#16 Varikas

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

Here's the ruling on Runic Knowledge (the one I was describing specifically): http://boardgamegeek...icial_FAQ#toc11

of cousre, this is legal cause the runic knowledge doesnt have the fatigue icon down and right.

It is exatily the same that with fortuna's dice. ;)


Edited by Varikas, 23 October 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#17 Steve-O

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

All what I said is cause it has been previously confimed by Justin, if I dont have something clear, first i ask him and after I talk about it hehe ;)

 

Thank you. =)

 

I don't speak Spanish unfortunately, but I do appreciate the effort you've made here.  I was just curious because the answers you were giving seemed much broader in scope than anything I had seen before.



#18 Varikas

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:20 AM

 

All what I said is cause it has been previously confimed by Justin, if I dont have something clear, first i ask him and after I talk about it hehe ;)

 

Thank you. =)

 

I don't speak Spanish unfortunately, but I do appreciate the effort you've made here.  I was just curious because the answers you were giving seemed much broader in scope than anything I had seen before.

And this is good or bad? :huh:

I am sorry but I dont understand what means exatily "seemed much broader in scope". Well, i hope that were good :P


Edited by Varikas, 24 October 2013 - 02:21 AM.


#19 Robin

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

At least, when debating on the Web about the web, we are spending fatigue without suffering... :-)
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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton




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