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Clarification needed on the upgraded weapons attachment


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#1 Yepesnopes

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:31 AM

I am confused regarding the cost of hard points.

 

If I want to add to a vehicle a weapon system which consist of a two laser cannons with the linked-1 quality, how many hard points is this? One? Two?

 

If I want to add to a vehicle a weapon system which consist of a three laser cannons with the linked-2 quality, how many hard points is this? One? Two? Three?

 

If I want to replace an existing weapon system, for example, two laser cannons with the linked-1 quality by two concussion missile launchers with the linked-1 quality, how many hard points is this? Zero? One?

 

And finally, If I want to replace an existing weapon system, for example, two laser cannons with the linked-1 quality by three laser cannons with the linked-2 quality, how many hard points is this? Zero?, One? Two?

 

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#2 Ghostofman

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

I am confused regarding the cost of hard points.

 

If I want to add to a vehicle a weapon system which consist of a two laser cannons with the linked-1 quality, how many hard points is this? One? Two?

 

 One.

 

If I want to add to a vehicle a weapon system which consist of a three laser cannons with the linked-2 quality, how many hard points is this? One? Two? Three?

One.

 

If I want to replace an existing weapon system, for example, two laser cannons with the linked-1 quality by two concussion missile launchers with the linked-1 quality, how many hard points is this? Zero? One?

Any tie you're talking Linked you're are talking one HP no matter if it's Linked 1 or Linked 80. So in this case you're removing one linked weapon (freeing up one HP) and replacing it with another (taking up one HP) leaving you with a net HP of zero.

 

And finally, If I want to replace an existing weapon system, for example, two laser cannons with the linked-1 quality by three laser cannons with the linked-2 quality, how many hard points is this? Zero?, One? Two?

The weapon counts as a single system, not individual cannons. Adding a single cannon to a like set of cannon/s to create/enhance the linked quality costs Zero HP.

 

 

And just guessing where you're going with this:

 

Yes, the fact that you can load out a ship with lots of linked weapons at no additional HP cost is a little odd, but understand that within the game mechanic you aren't adding a new weapon system (and giving the ship the ability to shoot more often or with a wider diversity of weapon types), just improving a weapon system to make it's specific attack potentially more effective.


Edited by Ghostofman, 21 October 2013 - 10:56 AM.

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#3 FuriousGreg

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:31 PM

 

The weapon counts as a single system, not individual cannons. Adding a single cannon to a like set of cannon/s to create/enhance the linked quality costs Zero HP.

 

Yes, the fact that you can load out a ship with lots of linked weapons at no additional HP cost is a little odd, but understand that within the game mechanic you aren't adding a new weapon system (and giving the ship the ability to shoot more often or with a wider diversity of weapon types), just improving a weapon system to make it's specific attack potentially more effective.

 

Sorry, can you reference the pg(s) in the RAW for this interpretation?


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#4 Ghostofman

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:14 PM

Sure!

PG 271, column 2, weapon upgrades section, Hard Points Required...ummm topic?

 

See it identifies the difference between a new "weapon" and a new "weapon system" and says "Weapon Systems" composed of more then one "Weapon" only count as a single HP, and not one for each "Weapon."

 

It seems a little weird at first, especially if you're used to other systems that use HP as the only balancing point. Edge uses Advantage to activate that Linked quality though, generating an extra layer of balance. So it doesn't matter if you've got a System of Laser cannons with Linked 80, if you are only rolling two ability dice you'll be lucky if you can even activate a single link. It'll make a nice light show though...

 

Now as for the adding an additional weapon to an existing system. I wasn't' sure of this either, until I really read it out. The last row on Table 7-17 (still on page 271) lists the cost of linking weapons. Read it out, it's not the cost modifier of a linked weapons system, it's the cost of actually linking two or more weapons into a single system. So... you have a ship with a single laser cannon and you want it linked, you pay the cost of the second cannon, the cost of the linking, and you have a single weapon system composed of two linked laser cannons. Narratively you might want to say the tech removed the original cannon rejiggered the mounting to make room for the second cannon before reinstalling your original and the new one, replaced the trigger system and firing computer to handle the extra gun, and slapped in some extra capacitors to handle the power needs... but that's what that linking fee was all about.

 

It's actually kinda interesting as this also allows you to install two independent laser cannons (or take a ship that already has them like say a YT-1300) and link them as an after market option... Good thing to know if you've only got two players.


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#5 FuriousGreg

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:48 PM

I see, I read it differently though. I read it as if you have two HPs on your ship and a Laser in each HP, you can link those two lasers gaining the Linked Quality. If you want four lasers linked you still need to have four HPs mount them.

Otherwise there is no way to stop someone from adding 50 laser cannons attached to a single HP, which is obviously ridiculous.


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#6 Kshatriya

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:57 PM

It may sound ridiculous, but realize how hard it is to trigger all 4 Quad-Lasers linking properly (6 Advantage) and then extrapolate to why it isn't a big deal, just a money pit.



#7 FuriousGreg

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

It may sound ridiculous, but realize how hard it is to trigger all 4 Quad-Lasers linking properly (6 Advantage) and then extrapolate to why it isn't a big deal, just a money pit.

It doesn't just sound ridiculous, 50 laser cannons would be the size of yt-1300. You can't seriously be suggesting that you could mount a turret the size of the ship it's on.  :lol:

 

Also a Quadlaser is a single gun with four barrels and the Linked Quality built in, it's not four laser cannons linked after the fact.


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#8 Yepesnopes

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

Ok, but then.

 

Do I understand it wrong? The book seems to say that it costs 1 HP to replace an existing weapon system without the linked quality, for example a laser cannon, by a weapon system with the linked quality, for example two laser cannons linked-1

 

Is this correct?


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#9 FuriousGreg

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:19 PM

Ok, but then.

 

Do I understand it wrong? The book seems to say that it costs 1 HP to replace an existing weapon system without the linked quality, for example a laser cannon, by a weapon system with the linked quality, for example two laser cannons linked-1

 

Is this correct?

Well I expect there will be a longer list of ship weapons in later books but currently you can attach a Quad Laser which has the Linked quality and it only requires one HP. Then you could link it to another one on a different HP.

 

The problem is that each weapon requires a HP, at least by my understanding of the RAW, so you are limited to the number of HPs you have. You can only get around this is by buying weapons that already have the linked quality that only require 1 HP (ie. the Quad Laser etc.)

 

Keep in mind that a Hard Point on a ship isn't just a reinforced part of the hull, it's supposed to represent everything required to use the weapon, like enough power generated in the Power plants etc.. A YT-1300 not only couldn't hold an unlimited number of Laser Cannons, it couldn't power them let alone take off and land...


Edited by FuriousGreg, 21 October 2013 - 02:19 PM.

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#10 Kshatriya

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

By the RAW you definitely can buy 3 medium laser cannons and install them to the same hardpoint as Linked (2).



#11 Ghostofman

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:30 PM


The problem is that each weapon requires a HP, at least by my understanding of the RAW, so you are limited to the number of HPs you have. You can only get around this is by buying weapons that already have the linked quality that only require 1 HP (ie. the Quad Laser etc.)

 

 

No you're missing a key word:

 

Weapon System

 

The game doesn't care how many barrels are sticking out of the front of the ship, it cares about how many can target a different target.

 

 

So a pair of linked laser cannons, are a single System, and cost one HP.

 

So replacing a single Ion cannon (1 weapons system) with a pair of linked light laser cannons (1 weapons system) cost 0 HP (Pg 271 Hard Points Required)

 


Keep in mind that a Hard Point on a ship isn't just a reinforced part of the hull, it's supposed to represent everything required to use the weapon, like enough power generated in the Power plants etc.. A YT-1300 not only couldn't hold an unlimited number of Laser Cannons, it couldn't power them let alone take off and land...

 

 

I think this is part of your problem, this is an old WotC definition that tried to explain a game mechanic in the form of a real world situation. See in EotE you could mount an unlimited number of laser cannons  onto a ship (provided they were linked). It just doesn't matter because, at a cost of two advantage per linked activation, you're not going to get much use out of more then four or so of those cannons.

 

FFG assumed you'd figure this out and laugh a little at the idea of an X-wing with 500 laser cannons and the inability to have more then a few of them hit.


Edited by Ghostofman, 21 October 2013 - 02:48 PM.

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#12 Tenrousei

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:08 AM

The game also says that common sense should apply in most situations.  To a certain extent, I agree that you could link multiple weapons into a single system, but I also think there should be a limit to the number of "barrels" any given weapon system could have.


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#13 FuriousGreg

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:56 PM

@Ghostofman

 

Well I sent this question to Sam S. and it turns out you are correct:

 

 

If one wants to add a weapon system consisting of two or more linked weapons, it takes one hard point.
 
Theoretically, there is no upper limit on how many weapons you can link together in this way. However, besides the prerogative of the GM and other players to say "no, don't be ridiculous" to the idea of linking dozens of weapons into the same system, the benefits of linking more than two or three weapons are dubious at best. Since it costs 2 Advantage or a Triumph (which could be spent on a critical hit instead) to trigger the Linked quality, the number of additional hits an attack can generate will cap out at 2-3 pretty quickly. 
 
So 50 linked laser cannons ends up doing the same thing as 3-4 linked laser cannons. However, with the credits you paid for 50 laser cannons, you could easily have bought a second or even a third starship. And that's assuming the GM or other players never spoke up and said how silly this was in the first place.

 

 

 

I sit corrected  :P


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#14 kaosoe

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:33 PM

@Ghostofman

 

Well I sent this question to Sam S. and it turns out you are correct:

 

 


 

If one wants to add a weapon system consisting of two or more linked weapons, it takes one hard point.
 
Theoretically, there is no upper limit on how many weapons you can link together in this way. However, besides the prerogative of the GM and other players to say "no, don't be ridiculous" to the idea of linking dozens of weapons into the same system, the benefits of linking more than two or three weapons are dubious at best. Since it costs 2 Advantage or a Triumph (which could be spent on a critical hit instead) to trigger the Linked quality, the number of additional hits an attack can generate will cap out at 2-3 pretty quickly. 
 
So 50 linked laser cannons ends up doing the same thing as 3-4 linked laser cannons. However, with the credits you paid for 50 laser cannons, you could easily have bought a second or even a third starship. And that's assuming the GM or other players never spoke up and said how silly this was in the first place.

 

 

I sit corrected  :P

Kudos for checking. And kudos for Sam answering his everyone's questions. That speaks loads for FFG.


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#15 Ghostofman

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 08:04 PM

That is awesome, Dev feedback can be tricky when it comes to PR practices, but having that direct involvement in the community is worth the trouble. Kudos for checking, kudos to Sam for responding, and kudos to ffg PR for letting him.
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#16 Yepesnopes

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 03:50 AM

I asked the following to Sam Stewart

 

I have a question regarding the Upgrade Weapons vehicle attachment.

 

In the core book, on page 271, it says "Hard Points Required: 0 if replacing an existing weapon system. 1 if adding a new weapon system. Weapon systems combining two or more weapons always cost 1 hard point, even if replacing an existing weapon system."

I am confused by the last statement.

1st question. If my ship comes by default with a Medium Laser Cannon, and I want to use the Upgrade Weapons attachment to replace the Medium Laser Cannon by a Two Medium Laser Cannons with the Linked 1 quality. Ho many HPs does it cost?

2nd question. If my ship comes by default with a Two Medium Laser Cannons with the linked 1 quality, and I want to use the Upgrade Weapons attachment to replace them by a Two Concussion Missile Launchers with the Linked 1 quality. Ho many HPs does it cost?

3rd question. If my ship comes by default with a Two Medium Laser Cannons with the linked 1 quality, and I want to use the Upgrade Weapons attachment to replace them by Three Concussion Missile Launchers with the Linked 2 quality. Ho many HPs does it cost?

 

this is the answer I got

 

Hello sir,

 
I'll answer your questions in order.
 
1. 1 Hard Point.
2. 1 Hard Point.
3. 1 Hard Point.
 
Hope this helps!
 
I hope it helps some of you.
 
Cheers,
Yepes

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#17 HappyDaze

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:39 AM

I don't tend to charge hard points for replacing weapons. If you want to replace twin light ion cannons with twin light laser cannons, it's idiotic that it costs the same amount of hard points as adding the laser cannons in addition to the ion cannons. Sam's answer may be RAW, but in this case following RAW makes no sense.


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#18 Diggles

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 06:36 AM

Same, hardpoints are just like gun emplacements on say like MECH's.  Left Shoulder, right arm, chest.....same thing with Starwars Vehicles.  If I remove the Dorsal Twin Laser Turret, its still a spot to stick a weapon system, no matter if its a single missile launcher or quad turret.






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