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What weapons should our squad be trying to get?


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#1 eriktheguy

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:51 PM

After realizing that most foes in the sector are either decently well armored, or orks. Our las carbines seem to fall into that sweet spot of being very likely to deal little or no damage against many enemies.

 

I'm trying to figure out what kind of upgrades we should be trying to get in order to hurt things. It seems like most weapons in the armory (playing with base book only) are either on par with the lasgun and common, or amazingly powerful and extremely rare.

 

It seems like it should be easy enough for our medic or operator to take training with a heavy stubber or auto-cannon or ripper and try to requisition one. They seem common enough for a squad with a good record and a couple of friends in high places to get. Our GM is probably going to role-play and common sense to see what we can requisition, because doubling the squad's damage output seems too important for one regimental logistics roll

 

I'm not sure what we're expected to have fluffwise or balance-wise. 

 

Also, I know rippers are made for ogryns and weird for a human to use, but they're the only common weapon that does so much damage and I can't see any reason why a medic or operator shouldn't be able to hold one if they take the training. Obviously they have to brace.

 

I guess hot-shot lasguns are another option.



#2 YoritomoKatsage

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:58 PM

This is a question i've struggled with myself, so i'll try to pass you along what i've discovered.

 

As far as weapons themselves, a longlas or triplex pattern goes a long way. i know some have said the triplex isn't what its cracked up to be (due to the lack of the variable power setting) the proven (5) Felling (4) shot is very good in the right situation. There have been a couple of times where the felling trait on the longlas has enabled me to save my squad mate's butts.

 

Fluff wise, most Guardsmen carry lasguns of some type or autoguns, with weapons specialists carrying a plasmagun/flamer/melta for specific target types and the heavy carrying a missile launcher/heavy stubber/heavy bolter for more firepower. This is Typical of a squad loadout, but by no means is it Standard. different regiments do different things.

 

On your last note for ripper guns, speaking as someone who's used it (not an ogryn) its amazingly powerful in close quarters only. It is a heavy weapon, but if you do a lot of close quarters fighting, its amazing.

 

One thing i would like to point out is the correct application of talents. Take the Expertise and Mastery talents from Hammer of the Emperor, for example. If everyone (or just the combat focused characters) picked up a few to augment their chosen weapon type, the bonuses can make even a lasgun horrifically leathal. for example, taking Lasgun Volley, Lasgun barrage, Lasgun expertise and Lasgun mastery will gain you +1 DoS if you succeed at all, +1 damage per hit per comerade participating in a ranged volley with you, a -5 per DoS to your opponent's dodge check, and +1 damage per 2 DoS beyond the first. Pretty powerful lasgun don't you think? And its all because your character has just gotten better at using it.

 

Hope it helps.

 



#3 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:45 AM

With sweeping orders (Get Them!) and various talents (lasgun barrage is one, others from Hammer of the Emperor), lasguns can become very nasty.

 

They're meant to be used en masse, and that's how you should use them (with the Comrade giving Volley Fire combined with Get Them!). Volley Fire + Get Them! turns a lasgun on standard setting into a 1d10+7 attack.

 

Ripper guns I think are not good if you are not an Ogryn (or do not have Bulging Biceps) because as mentioned they are for close-quarters fighting and Bracing when you are in close quarters is going to pose problems.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 20 October 2013 - 02:46 AM.


#4 venkelos

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:49 AM

I can understand completely wanting your group to do more damage, but if you look at the Guard, they do it by having blobs of guys, half of them missing their shots, and possibly a transport vehicle or tank behind them, adding in firepower, preferably while half behind cover. They kill Orks through massive volleys of las, not better guns, and the Dept. Mun. is VERY stingy with their better toys, possibly irregardless of who you know. This isn't to say don't try to get better stuff; Only War might occasionally lose the feel of how Guard do things, when you are accustomed to multiple 30-man blobs of expendable fodder, standing in front of some heavy weapon emplacements, and instead given a group of ten soldiers, possibly half of them being only kinda soldiers (your pawn Comrades), and a certain attachment to wanting to keep this one person, who in game might be seemingly unimportant, but you invested time and sweat into the manufacture of. When it's you there, you try for better gear.

 

I'd argue that, if your group is in an Ogryn-light area, rippers are not easy to find; they are made for Ogryns, and no one else. It's sort of like if my Human Smuggler wants a bowcaster. He's not on Kashyyk (spelled wrong), so stores aren't likely to sell them, and lacks the necessary strength to cock the gun. It's also an Exotic weapon for him. Ripper Guns might not be this bad, but they are made for bigger, stronger beings than most Guardsmen will ever be.

 

In the main book, as that is the one you are drawing from, the bulk of the unusual ammos are rather easy to come by (Scarce), so if they go for autoweapons over lasguns, they could have those ammos. Clip is the only real difference, in my opinion, autogun to lasgun, and special ammo might make each shot count more, so not that big of one. Also remember grenades and terrain; many IG battles aren't fast, and take days or weeks to prosecute. There are a lot of Guard for this, and tough enemies to weather their firepower.



#5 eriktheguy

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:08 AM

I'll talk to the GM about getting a sergeant in our squad, it would probably seem weird to be led everywhere by a commissar after awhile. It's pretty difficult to raise your personal damage with talents, so not having a sergeant around to give a +5 damage buff seems like a serious handicap. Doesn't matter much for my ratling, since he often acts independently anyways, but it's nice to have someone other than the heavy and I dealing damage (admittedly the operator can also deal damage in a vehicle, but so can anyone with the operate skill).

 

 

My ratling is going to try for some more special ammos for his sniper rifle.

 

Edit: Might also consider asking GM to let the commissar take the 'get them' action.


Edited by eriktheguy, 20 October 2013 - 03:04 PM.


#6 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

The Get Them! sweeping order makes a big deal, and if the squad is following a commissar around, I'd guess it's not unreasonable for him to be able to issue orders.

 

Overcharged las-fire is also something which should pretty much be standard operating practice against greenskins. The settings on a lasgun, even in the hands of a basic grunt, punch a hit up with +2 damage and +2 pen.

 

A heavy stubber isn't a bad thing to acquire but neither is a grenade launcher with krak rounds. What, can I ask, is the squad made up of?



#7 Amaimon

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:03 AM

Long las - with 50 BS, +20 accurate aim, +10 single shot, +10 short range, +5 comrade, (+10 heroic inspiration from your sarge, as half action from him), -20 for enemies running, or rain whatever, 85 BS - you easily get 4 DoS, to get 3d10+5 (overcharge) + 4 get them +2 damage (las barrage) = 27 dmg, felling 4

 

avarage ork soaks 4 from TB, 12 wounds, 4 true grit = +7 critical, if you got ambush, add another +2 to it. One shot, one kill.



#8 Radwraith

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

The Get Them! sweeping order makes a big deal, and if the squad is following a commissar around, I'd guess it's not unreasonable for him to be able to issue orders.

 

 

Um..No. Giving the Commisar the ability to issue sweeping orders defeats the purpose of the Sergeant! If the Commissar really wants to "Lead" the squad he could cross class into either the Sergeant or Commander class. As has been stated elsewhere: The Commissar's role is very different from that of a "true" military officer. 



#9 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:18 AM

As a GM, I require every group to have a sergeant.

 

Even more important than get Them! is Snap Out of It!


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 21 October 2013 - 07:18 AM.


#10 Kharol

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:39 AM

The Get Them! sweeping order makes a big deal, and if the squad is following a commissar around, I'd guess it's not unreasonable for him to be able to issue orders.

Um..No. Giving the Commisar the ability to issue sweeping orders defeats the purpose of the Sergeant! If the Commissar really wants to "Lead" the squad he could cross class into either the Sergeant or Commander class. As has been stated elsewhere: The Commissar's role is very different from that of a "true" military officer.
Rules as written, Support Specialists cannot change Specialization. So, some Guardsman in the squad would have to change Specialization. If it was my game, and the Commissar was the "party leader", and no one else seemed interested in stepping into a leadership role, I would probably let the Commissar purchase the Sweeping Orders open to the Sergeant.

Edited by Kharol, 21 October 2013 - 08:41 AM.


#11 eriktheguy

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:27 AM

Thanks everyone!

Overcharged las-fire is also something which should pretty much be standard operating practice against greenskins. The settings on a lasgun, even in the hands of a basic grunt, punch a hit up with +2 damage and +2 pen.

 

A heavy stubber isn't a bad thing to acquire but neither is a grenade launcher with krak rounds. What, can I ask, is the squad made up of?

Our players are heavy (heavy bolter), ratling (me with sniper rifle), operator (just lasgun if not in vehicle), medic (just lasgun but looking for options), commissar (chainsword adict), priest (flamer/chainsword). The grenade launcher looks interesting. Even with frag it could be decent, as the GM has taken to giving frag nades the 'tearing' rule if used on an enemy in a tightly enclosed space to represent increased pressure and shrapnel damage.

 

I hate the variable settings on the gun because only the optimizers ever remember to use it. I'm planning on changing the weapons entry on everyone's sheet to have 2 entries for the lasgun, one for the regular overcharge (+1 dam) and one for the super overcharge (+2 dam +2 pen).

 

Long las - with 50 BS, +20 accurate aim, +10 single shot, +10 short range, +5 comrade, (+10 heroic inspiration from your sarge, as half action from him), -20 for enemies running, or rain whatever, 85 BS - you easily get 4 DoS, to get 3d10+5 (overcharge) + 4 get them +2 damage (las barrage) = 27 dmg, felling 4

 

avarage ork soaks 4 from TB, 12 wounds, 4 true grit = +7 critical, if you got ambush, add another +2 to it. One shot, one kill.

Think I want to keep the sniper rifle for fluffy reasons, but special ammo can make up for not having felling. I also took the ratling comrade perk that let's him aim for me, but will probably forgo using it on rounds when 'get them' is used.

 

Um..No. Giving the Commisar the ability to issue sweeping orders defeats the purpose of the Sergeant! If the Commissar really wants to "Lead" the squad he could cross class into either the Sergeant or Commander class. As has been stated elsewhere: The Commissar's role is very different from that of a "true" military officer. 

 

 

I didn't know cross-class was a thing.

 

Rules as written, Support Specialists cannot change Specialization. So, some Guardsman in the squad would have to change Specialization. If it was my game, and the Commissar was the "party leader", and no one else seemed interested in stepping into a leadership role, I would probably let the Commissar purchase the Sweeping Orders open to the Sergeant.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. No one else really digs taking up the sergeant role and everyone is happy with their class. We're either going to need a DM controlled sergeant or to just let these sweeping orders slide unless we let the commissar pick it up. I don't see it stepping on the sergeant's toes because no one wants to be sergeant, and I don't see it making the commissar overpowered because he's spending his own experience to make the rest of the party better.



#12 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:45 AM

If the Commissar tries to engage Orks in melee with his chainsword (assuming he doesn't have buttloads of XP), he will die.

 

EDIT: a lot of this depends on your interpretation of how Furious Assault works. He'll still die, but maybe not as fast. :)

 

On the other hand, the priest's flamer is really the way to go with Orks. You'd better hope none of them are in Charge range if he misses with it though.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 21 October 2013 - 09:49 AM.


#13 eriktheguy

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:48 AM

Hmm... I've finally looked up all the rules relating to the ork's traits and talents. It's damn annoying that I have to go on a scavenger hunt through the entire book when most of these things could have been included in the monster stat block.

 

I can see how nice furious assault is, basically makes up for a player parrying by allowing a follow up attack. Still, with only about 4-5 sessions behind us (1500-2k exp) the commissar and priest were able to handle about 4 orks in melee with occasional support from allies.

 

We weren't using brutal charge, crushing blow, furious assault or true grit, but then I'm assuming the WS bonus from crushing blow is already included in the ork's attack stats (as well as their S bonus).

 

I'm probably going to write enemy stats from scratch in the future using the book as guidelines, so that I don't have to constantly flip though creature entries and the talents/traits sections.

 

But yeah, even with these revelations I think the commissar could melee a single ork. I mean tearing weapons are essentially the best thing against true grit.

 

That said, we've also been doing things against the rules that favor the Orks. For one we've often been starting the combat much closer than our guns/eyes can easily see, i.e. not generally getting 10 free turns of shooting before the orks reach melee like we should. We've also increased speed from the RAW so that instead of ABx1 for half, x2 for full, x3 for charge and x6 for run we are using x2 for half, x4 for full/charge and x6 for run, so the orks do close on us faster.



#14 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:54 AM

You can figure out how much damage Orks should be doing yourself. I did the math :) trying to overcome FFG's ofteh inaccurate adding :( myselg and realized the Ork choppas were doing the choppa damage given in Rogue Trader, which is 1d10+1 Pen 2 Tearing Unbalanced, that is, a mono axe with Tearing added.

 

1d10+1 + 4 (SB) + 1 (Crushing Blow) = 1d10+6.

 

Don't forget to add Brutal Charge (1) on that if they Charge.

 

EDIT: yeah if you remove their Talents, Orks are no longer Orks. They are not any tougher than Guardsmen really. So the 120 Orks your guys killed were actually 120 suicidal Guardsmen armed with axes. :)

 

EDIT 2: Yes, Tearing weapons are what you want to use against Orks if you can since that doubles the RF Crits. Especially R and X, since those will give the Blood Loss results you want.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 21 October 2013 - 11:01 AM.


#15 eriktheguy

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

EDIT: yeah if you remove their Talents, Orks are no longer Orks. They are not any tougher than Guardsmen really. So the 120 Orks your guys killed were actually 120 suicidal Guardsmen armed with axes. :)

 

EDIT 2: Yes, Tearing weapons are what you want to use against Orks if you can since that doubles the RF Crits. Especially R and X, since those will give the Blood Loss results you want.

 

Well, they still had higher wounds and toughness than anyone and often shrugged off any damage we did, but yeah, we thought they were really tough even without several of those traits.

 

Luckily everyone had fun each session so no real loss.


Edited by eriktheguy, 21 October 2013 - 11:09 AM.


#16 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:18 AM

Look at it this way. An Ork has a 6 TB and AP2 on his body. A statistically average Guardsman has a 3 TB and AP4 everywhere. Assuming that they are being shot at by something with no Pen, an Ork is slightly more resistant to damage in his body location (8 vs. 7) and less resistant to it anywhere else (6 vs. 7). Orks have 12 Wounds vs.10.

 

Without True Grit in play, Orks are literally not harder to kill than Guardsmen are.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 21 October 2013 - 11:19 AM.


#17 eriktheguy

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

Well keep in mind that we're often hitting the body with Pen 0 lasguns, while the orcs were often hitting us with pen2 choppas. Of course that's apples and oranges, the characters with chainswords do much more damage in melee with the combination of tearing and pen.



#18 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

With a Pen 0 lasgun to the body, an Ork has a 1 higher damage soak in the body; with a Pen 2 chainsword he has a 1 higher damage soak as well. And 2 more Wounds. So the difference is marginal. His Weapon Skill isn't even much higher.

 

Anyway it's not important. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just like doing math. :)


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 21 October 2013 - 03:23 PM.


#19 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:16 AM

Um..No. Giving the Commisar the ability to issue sweeping orders defeats the purpose of the Sergeant!

I agree. But they don't have a sergeant and it sounds like there's no-one interested in being one.

 

 

I didn't know cross-class was a thing.

It is and it isn't.

 

In Hammer Of The Emperor, regimental specialists get a chance to change speciality every X experience points. You can either swap to a different speciality (e.g. medic to weapons specialist), one of the advanced specialities (medic to sentry) or not change your speciality (and aptitudes), stick with your current speciality and gain a small stat bonus.






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