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Who declares swarm tactics and in what order?


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#1 nimdabew

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:33 AM

It came up in a game of mine a while back of who declares swarm tactics in what order. His Vader had swarm and tried chaining to two others to all get PS9. Depending on how he chained though, I could either do two PS8, and two PS7. Now it may not sound like much, but he had a PS7 pilot on the board and if I chained at PS8, then I would have had 3 ships shooting before his PS7, but if I chained a different way, I could have had two PS8 & two PS7 which would have been four ships vs three ships shooting before. How HE chained directly affected how I was going to chain since his chain and how he fired changed how I was going to set up my firing schedule.

So who chains first? Is it the person with iniative?

#2 Buhallin

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:58 AM

Bottom of page 16:

 

If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves his abilities first.



#3 nimdabew

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:09 AM

Right... Figures that I forget the most used rule in the game besides rolling red/green dice.

#4 dvor

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 04:17 AM

Another example where initiative is a disadvantage...


X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.


#5 Bjorn Rockfist

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

It would have worked like this:

 

Darth PS 9 used ST on one of the others, which IMMEDIATELY became PS 9, who then would be able to use their new PS 9, beating out your chance to start your ST chain, on the other ship, IMMEDIATELY making it a PS 9.  The new PS caused by ST takes precidence over others on the board.  ST is not an "Action" so he could chain it off Vader and have 3 PS 9 ships not matter what, mainly because your ST chain would have been put on the back burner as his PS 9, Vader, started his chain, and then was contiuned by his new PS 9 pilot.

 

There is no "disadvantage" to having initiative in this situation.


Edited by Bjorn Rockfist, 20 October 2013 - 01:15 PM.

Rebel - (4)X-Wing (5)Y (5)A (4)B (3)E (6)HWK-290 (8)Z-95 (3)YT-1300 (3) 2400 (2)GR-75 (1)CR-90 (6)Rebel Aces

Empire - (8)TIE Fighter (4)Advanced (5)Interceptor (6)Bomber (3)Defender (4)Phantom (3)Firespray-31

              (4)Lambda-class Shuttle (4)Imperial Aces (2)VT-49 Decimator

SOONtir - (6)Most Wanted (7)M3-A (4)StarViper (3)Aggressor


#6 ziggy2000

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:24 PM

It would have worked like this:

 

Darth PS 9 used ST on one of the others, which IMMEDIATELY became PS 9, who then would be able to use their new PS 9, beating out your chance to start your ST chain, on the other ship, IMMEDIATELY making it a PS 9.  The new PS caused by ST takes precidence over others on the board.  ST is not an "Action" so he could chain it off Vader and have 3 PS 9 ships not matter what, mainly because your ST chain would have been put on the back burner as his PS 9, Vader, started his chain, and then was contiuned by his new PS 9 pilot.

 

There is no "disadvantage" to having initiative in this situation.

I don't think Pilot Skill has anything to do with the order that Swarm Tactics goes off. I'm pretty sure Buhallin's read is the correct one.



#7 Drakhan Valane

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:49 PM

Correct. Nothing on the card indicates PS is involved in the order you apply it. The player with initiative chooses theirs first regardless of PS involved.
Rebel Alliance: 3 X-Wings, 1 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wings, 2 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290s, 1 YT-1300
Empire: 2 TIE Fighters, 1 TIE Advance, 1 Lambda Shuttle

#8 Bjorn Rockfist

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:11 PM

What I was trying to get across in my post is the fact that.  No matter what order nimdabew thought ST would go off in he couldn't stop/change his opponent from having 3 PS 9 ships who would get to fire before any of his.


Edited by Bjorn Rockfist, 21 October 2013 - 07:13 PM.

Rebel - (4)X-Wing (5)Y (5)A (4)B (3)E (6)HWK-290 (8)Z-95 (3)YT-1300 (3) 2400 (2)GR-75 (1)CR-90 (6)Rebel Aces

Empire - (8)TIE Fighter (4)Advanced (5)Interceptor (6)Bomber (3)Defender (4)Phantom (3)Firespray-31

              (4)Lambda-class Shuttle (4)Imperial Aces (2)VT-49 Decimator

SOONtir - (6)Most Wanted (7)M3-A (4)StarViper (3)Aggressor


#9 nimdabew

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:06 AM

I never thought he would be prevented from using his PS9 guys, but the ships he chained with determined which ships I chained with since it was a tie swarm vs almost tie swarm. I reacted to his swarm with my swarm. If I had to choose first, my choices would have been different.

#10 Galactic Funk

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:31 PM

I never thought he would be prevented from using his PS9 guys, but the ships he chained with determined which ships I chained with since it was a tie swarm vs almost tie swarm. I reacted to his swarm with my swarm. If I had to choose first, my choices would have been different.


I'm confused about what you are saying. If your highest PS is 8 and your opponents is 9 then you will know if your opponent starts a ST chain prior to you having the opportunity to do so. The only time initiative enters the pictutre is if you have the same PS.

I'm thinking that there must be some confusion as to how ST works going on here.

#11 Buhallin

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:43 PM

I'm confused about what you are saying. If your highest PS is 8 and your opponents is 9 then you will know if your opponent starts a ST chain prior to you having the opportunity to do so. The only time initiative enters the pictutre is if you have the same PS.

I'm thinking that there must be some confusion as to how ST works going on here.

There may be some confusion, but I think it's yours ;)  Swarm Tactics is declared at the beginning of the combat phase, NOT when you get to the ship with Swarm Tactics.  So if you both have Swarm Tactics, it will ALWAYS come to initiative no matter what the relative PS is.

 

When it comes time to make that decision, it's more about who DOESN'T get Swarmed than who does.

 

As a simple example, assume we've both got a 9+Swarm, a 7, and a 5, and you go first.  If you pick your 7, then I pick my 5.  That gives you 9/9/5, and me a 9/9/7 - advantage is mine.  If you pick your 5, then you have 9/9/7, and I can decide whether I want 9/9/7 as well, or 9/9/5.  And that's just the simple numbers - based on who can fire at who, knowing your opponent's firing order can let you optimize your own.


Edited by Buhallin, 22 October 2013 - 02:44 PM.


#12 Galactic Funk

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

I'm confused about what you are saying. If your highest PS is 8 and your opponents is 9 then you will know if your opponent starts a ST chain prior to you having the opportunity to do so. The only time initiative enters the pictutre is if you have the same PS.
I'm thinking that there must be some confusion as to how ST works going on here.

There may be some confusion, but I think it's yours ;)  Swarm Tactics is declared at the beginning of the combat phase, NOT when you get to the ship with Swarm Tactics.  So if you both have Swarm Tactics, it will ALWAYS come to initiative no matter what the relative PS is.
 
When it comes time to make that decision, it's more about who DOESN'T get Swarmed than who does.
 
As a simple example, assume we've both got a 9+Swarm, a 7, and a 5, and you go first.  If you pick your 7, then I pick my 5.  That gives you 9/9/5, and me a 9/9/7 - advantage is mine.  If you pick your 5, then you have 9/9/7, and I can decide whether I want 9/9/7 as well, or 9/9/5.  And that's just the simple numbers - based on who can fire at who, knowing your opponent's firing order can let you optimize your own.

You are absolutely correct Buhallin, it was my confusion and I just cam back to edit my post as such.

I guess it pays to look at the card first, lol.

#13 Buhallin

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:43 PM

You are absolutely correct Buhallin, it was my confusion and I just cam back to edit my post as such.

I guess it pays to look at the card first, lol.

 

Happens to the best of us :D



#14 Bjorn Rockfist

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:46 PM

I never thought he would be prevented from using his PS9 guys, but the ships he chained with determined which ships I chained with since it was a tie swarm vs almost tie swarm. I reacted to his swarm with my swarm. If I had to choose first, my choices would have been different.

Gotcha!


Rebel - (4)X-Wing (5)Y (5)A (4)B (3)E (6)HWK-290 (8)Z-95 (3)YT-1300 (3) 2400 (2)GR-75 (1)CR-90 (6)Rebel Aces

Empire - (8)TIE Fighter (4)Advanced (5)Interceptor (6)Bomber (3)Defender (4)Phantom (3)Firespray-31

              (4)Lambda-class Shuttle (4)Imperial Aces (2)VT-49 Decimator

SOONtir - (6)Most Wanted (7)M3-A (4)StarViper (3)Aggressor


#15 dvor

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:19 AM

As a simple example, assume we've both got a 9+Swarm, a 7, and a 5, and you go first.  If you pick your 7, then I pick my 5.  That gives you 9/9/5, and me a 9/9/7 - advantage is mine.  If you pick your 5, then you have 9/9/7, and I can decide whether I want 9/9/7 as well, or 9/9/5.  And that's just the simple numbers - based on who can fire at who, knowing your opponent's firing order can let you optimize your own.

And that's why initiative is a disadvantage with swarm tactics. As with most things.


X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.


#16 Cerealthief

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:38 AM

Can I just clarify as to

If we both have PS9 and you have initiative. You kill my PS9 guy, does he get to fire or is he dead Jim? (Star Trek quote in a star wars forum... word)



#17 Buhallin

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:51 AM

He gets to remain in play until after he has had his opportunity to attack, per the Simultaneous Fire rules.

 

Immediately after attacking, the ship is removed.



#18 Cerealthief

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

Good, that is what I thought.

 I find the whole swarm tactics thing interesting, I've always used it with wedge n biggs because it ensures biggs actually gets to shoot before he dies when vs higher PS dudes but vs low ps dudes I can Swarm my rookie or ywing.
 
 The hardest thing is remembering to declare it is being used....



#19 Lizrrdbreath

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:29 PM

I love that people consider picking your swarm tactics first when you have initiative some sort of horrible disadvantage. You still shoot first no matter what... you have to be tactically minded and make estimations of your opponents potential plays just as you would with dials. I personally think that having the rule for initiative be to always go first is simpler and thus better and clearer game design. Its a play of advantages and disadvantages where depending on your build you could want to or not want to have initiative for any variety of reasons. I would rather have this be the case instead of needing to wait for FAQ to determine who does what first or having some long list of confusing or subjective conditions.


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#20 dvor

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:24 PM

The hardest thing is remembering to declare it is being used....

Technically you have to use it. It is not optional. So forgetting to declaree it is like forgetting to execute your maneuver. In a way.

 

I love that people consider picking your swarm tactics first when you have initiative some sort of horrible disadvantage.

Not horrible. Just a disadvantage.


X-wing is played over a series of game rounds. Turn is a type of maneuver.





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