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#21 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:53 AM

Didn't want to start a new newby questions thread, so I ended up here. One small question: how exactly do you resolve a monster surge, specifically - monster placement.

That is how I do it:

a) look at the number of open gates on the board and compare to # of players to calculate the "size" of surge

b) check if the monster limit allows me to place all monsters

b-1) if it is possible to place all the monster, go to c)

b-2) if it is not possible to place all monsters - decide where monsters will spawn

c) draw monsters 1 by 1, without looking at them and put them on the gate, starting with the surge gate. Mosters that cannot be placed on the gates go to the outskirts - I pull them from the cup 1 by 1 after I am done placing the monsters in Arkham.

 

But after re-reading the rules I think that I am overcomplicating this... The rules say that I have to "draw monsters from the cup at random and place them on each location with an open gate". So I see at least 3 ways to do this:

1) the way I do it - first decide where to place monster and order of placement and them pull them 1 by 1;

2) first decide gates that will get a monster, then pull a monster, look at it and choose its destination gate (example - I have to place 3 monster and have 4 gates opened, first I choose IS, UI and BC for monster placement, then I pull 1 moster, look at it and decide where exactly I am going to put him);

3) draw X monsters (X=surge size) look at them all and divide them between the gates as previously decided. This, I think, is the most player-friendly variant, because you see the "difficulty" of the surge and can choose to leave most troublesome monsters for the outskirts if the monster limit will be exceeded.

 

Is there anything I've missed in the rules and FAQ that shows how this is to be resolved correctly? And, most importantly, how do you resilve monster surge?

 

Thanks, Mike


Edited by ceridan13, 24 October 2013 - 02:57 AM.


#22 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:02 AM

Oh, and I can think of 1 more variant:

4) As always, first choose the gate to spawn monsters. Pull X mosnsters where X is the number of monsters "placeable" in Arkham due to monster limit. Spread monsters among the gates the way I like. After that pull Y monsters and put them to outskirts.

This way I can't choose to distribute toughest to the outskirts...



#23 Julia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:08 AM

a) you calculate the number of monsters released by the surge (investigators number or gates number, whichever is the greater)

b) you start spawning monsters on the gates, starting from the surging gate (no other gate can have more monsters spawned during the surge than the surging gate) without looking at the chit (the step from chit to cheat is very small) and placing one monster at the time over the different gates

c) if after placing a monster on every gate in play you still have monsters to place, you repeat b) until you're done with all the monsters

d) if at any point during b) or c) the number of monsters in Arkham equals the monster limit, the remaining monsters are placed in the Outskirts

 

Hope this helps!


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#24 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:11 AM

Thanks for the lightning-fast reply, Julia! :) 

I have to ask for further clarification thou. Lets simulate this situation:

I have a game with 4 investigators, core game no expansions. There are 4 gates opened in Arkham: Woods, Black Cave,  Graveyard and The Unnabmle. There are 4 monsters currently in play. I pull a Mythos with a gate openeing in the Woods. Monster surge (MS) happens.

1) I have to place 4 monsters, but due to ML (monster limit) I can only place 3. One of them should be placed on the Woods.

2) I decide, that I will put 1 monster on Woods, 1 on Graveyard and 1 on Black Cave.

3) You say, that I will have to place 1st monster on Woods. But, tbh, I disagree. The rules say, that I can't place more monsters on other gates compared to initial MS gate. But nothing about placing my first chip there. So I can (before drawing) choose to put 1st monster on Graveyard, 2nd on Woods anв 3rd on Black Cave. The Unnamable will get 0 due to ML.

4) Now I draw 1st chip and, as previously decided, I put it on Graveyard. After that Woods and Black Cave.

But yet again, rules only say:

"If there are more monsters to be placed than allowed by the monster limit, the players should decide where monsters will be placed. The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup".

So, literally, I only decide which gates will get a monster, not the order of monster placement. If so, I can pull a chip, look at it and send it either to Woods, Graveyard or Black Cave as I see fit. 

This is another option and I can't see if it contradicts the rules in any way... but maybe I am wrong.

5) There is still 1 more monster that is pulled after step 3. He goes to the outskirts due to ML. Again, if I pull all monster chips (4) and then decide - I can choose which monster lives in suburbs.

 

I think I am about to get a reputation of an unpleasant guy who tends to disagree with seniors, but I am trying to get to the bottom of this and so I have to argue a bit first :)

 

Personaly, I agree that choosing which monster goes where after pulling the chips looks a bit like cheating... as it considerably lowers the difficulty of a monster surge. But still, the rules allow a player to resolve MS this way, unless I missed something in there.



#25 The Professor

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:13 AM

ceridan13,

 

     The way Julia described the process is the cleanest, easiest way to resolve it.  As always, start with the 'surging' gate...now remember that while no other gate may obtain more chits than other 'from the surge' that doesn't mean that no gate could have more monster chits than the currently surging gate 'after resolving the surging gate.'

 

Cheers,

Joe


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#26 The Professor

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:27 AM

Ceridan13,

 

     Unless I'm not completely correct in this process, the placement f the first chit on the "surging" gate is one of convention,. not a rule...but, suffice it to say that I know of no game in which I've played at game stores, Arkham Nights, etc. that we dind't place the first chit on the "surging" gate.

 

     As to the placement, I distribute to every open gate and if, upon returning to the gates open in Arkham, I've already exceeded the Monster Limit, the next chit goes to the Outskirts, even if I haven't exhausted the pile of monster chits which "surged" from the gate.

 

Your reputation is just fine ~ lively debate is what we encourage...again, at the end of the day, Julia, you, and I may play differently, but by-and-large, not in a fundamentally different way.

 

Cheers,
Joe


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#27 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:40 AM

Thank you, Joe and Julia,

 

I also went through BGG and the answers are absolutely the same - you decide the gates, the order and then randomly pull chips one at a time and put them on a gate in the abovementioned order. That means - my initial understanding of the MS rule war correct, so I am reliefed to see that others do it the same way.

 

And yet I can't but mention that this rule is only the interpretation on the Rule Book, which, unfortunately, doesn't provide enough information allowing players to resolve MS in any way they see fit... Those who want to get an easier game can chose destination gate for a chip after looking at it and they will not break a single AH rule, I think.

 

Or is there any official clarification that was not included in the FAQ that I am not aware of?

 

Mike


Edited by ceridan13, 24 October 2013 - 04:42 AM.


#28 The Professor

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:52 AM

Mike,

 

     You're spot-on...there are a number of ways in which you can play the game and not necessarily 'violate' the rules.  You'll always have some subset of "dyed in the wool" adherents to the rules and will use the most conservative interpretation...or as we say, "Arkham's Razor' to decide what's the worst cast for the Investigator.  Then there's a wide spectrum of other possibilities to which I subscribe, in some manner, say for gaining "Clue" tokens.  I'm not of the opinion that if a Clue token appears during the Mythos Phase in exactly the spot where the Investigator is located that they'll need to wait until the end of the next Movement Phase to acquire it...no, AH is far too fluid of a game for that type of treatment.  If it arrives, take it, and go!

 

     One of the truly remarkable things about this game, is that while the rules among the various expansions, coupled with the FAQ, easily exceeds 100 pages, there's still plenty of room to maneuver and find the game that's right for you.

 

Cheers,

Joe


Edited by The Professor, 24 October 2013 - 04:52 AM.

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#29 Julia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:35 AM


I'm not of the opinion that if a Clue token appears during the Mythos Phase in exactly the spot where the Investigator is located that they'll need to wait until the end of the next Movement Phase to acquire it...no, AH is far too fluid of a game for that type of treatment.  If it arrives, take it, and go!

Joe, that's actually the way it has to be played! :) It's in the FAQ:

 

Q: When does an investigator pick up Clue tokens on the board?
A: Investigators pick up Clue tokens in only two cases:
1.During the Movement Phase, if an investigator ends his movement in an Arkham location or street area containing Clue tokens, he picks them up after evading or combating any monsters in the same location or area. Investigators cannot pick up Clue tokens from a location or street area and then continue moving.
2.During the Mythos Phase, when a Clue token is placed in the same location as one or more investigators, one of them may immediately pick it up. If they cannot agree who gets the Clue token, the first player decides.
Note that investigators do not pick up any Clue tokens when they are sent to a location with a Clue token during the Upkeep Phase, the Arkham Encounters Phase, or the Other World Encounters Phase.


Edited by Julia, 24 October 2013 - 06:37 AM.

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#30 Julia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:57 AM

Mike,

yes, you're correct when you say:

 

3) You say, that I will have to place 1st monster on Woods. But, tbh, I disagree. The rules say, that I can't place more monsters on other gates compared to initial MS gate. But nothing about placing my first chip there. So I can (before drawing) choose to put 1st monster on Graveyard, 2nd on Woods anв 3rd on Black Cave. The Unnamable will get 0 due to ML.

 

The point is that you may not choose a solution where the Woods don't get a monster. But indeed, you can decide to place the 1st  monster on the Graveyard, the 2nd on the Black Cave, the 3rd one on the Woods. But it's also true you can't place 1 monster on the Graveyard, 1 on the Black Cave and 1 on the Unnamable and nothing on the Woods, because the Woods was the surging gate. So, the convention is to put the first monster on the surging gate, to be sure not to forget it. You'll see with an extended board due to expansions and several gates open, and maybe some monsters here and there already on gates that it's possible to resolve the surge and then asking "did I put a monster on that surging gate?", so it's easier if you start with the surging gate. Nonetheless, your interpretation on this point is totally coherent with the rules.

 

I don't get the point you raised on your point number 4. Honestly, I don't see a conflict: rules say no gate can have more monsters than the surging, so Woods must be chosen in your example. Additionally, this line in the rules (pag. 9): "The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup" suggests me that you may not draw from the cup, look at the chit and decide where the monster has to go. You go with "the next one is for the Graveyard", you draw the monster and you place it. The other way round seems totally unfair to me: it's way too easy with investigators on gates waiting to seal to go for a "look, a Cultist! This one's for Gloria's gate! Hey, a Stationary monster! Lovely, Devil Reef is open and this guy here won't enter the vortex".

 

Finally, we cannot pretend FFG to hire lawyers to write their rulebooks. First of all, because if they did, nobody will be able to understand what's written :P and more seriously: it's a game. Let's try to understand the way it works, and play accordingly. Rules for monster surges are pretty sound and clear: you have X monsters to be divided among Y gates, you decide what to put where before drawing, you proceed in putting monsters on the board until you reach the ML. End of the story. If I had to lawyer the rule, I'd say it's not stated anywhere you are not allowed to draw a monster, look at it, and if you don't like it, put it back in the bag. But that's no Arkham any longer. Not the way I understand Arkham, anyhow.

 

Last line: you're totally not an unpleasant guy. We had ONE unpleasant guy in the past (he was banned something like 20 times, or so), and we all remember him very well. For the rest, you have your right to ask as many questions as you wish, and to discuss our opinion as long as you wish, there is no harm in this (actually, it's a good way to see if our knowledge of the game is so sound as we believe it is, so thanks!). And in case you push the limit, hey, don't worry. And don't worry about that knocking on your door you may hear sometimes. Dark Youngs use to bash down the door after a while, so we'll get you anyway :kiss:


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#31 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:59 AM

Julia, I have to disagree :) with this one particular statement:

 

"I don't get the point you raised on your point number 4. Honestly, I don't see a conflict: rules say no gate can have more monsters than the surging, so Woods must be chosen in your example. Additionally, this line in the rules (pag. 9): "The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup" suggests me that you may not draw from the cup, look at the chit and decide where the monster has to go. You go with "the next one is for the Graveyard", you draw the monster and you place it".

 

More precicely I disagree that that line: "The players must make this decision before monsters have been drawn from the cup" suggests me that you may not draw from the cup, look at the chit and decide where the monster has to go".

 

By "this decision" the rule book clearly points to the previously stated: "...players should decide where monsters will be placed". So, as I see it, you only decide where you gonna place them, not the order in which you gonna place them. That said, when I draw 1st chip I am obliged to put it on one of the gates previously agreed, but which one? You have to decide now, but since nothing forbids looking at the chip you can decide where the chip goes after looking at it.

 

Again, I fully agree with you that thematicaly and logicaly the abovementioned way of resolving MS is a cheat - by no way unvestigators should have control over which monsters are drawn through the gates. Its just that I feel like there is a glitch in the rules that can be frustrating for new players, who, hopefully, will come here looking for the answer.

 

Mike


Edited by ceridan13, 24 October 2013 - 08:33 AM.


#32 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:51 AM

Ah, enough with the boring stuff! Here is a true newby question:

What happens if I have a Maniac monster trophy and level 6 Terror track hits? All maniacs get Endless ability. But Endless means that they cannot be claimed as a trophy, so I should be able to keep mine, right?



#33 Julia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:01 AM

Yes, what is dead may not be dead, but what is trophied remained a trophy. You've read the Endless ability correctly.

 

Additionally, remember that environments or other game effects influencing the toughness of monsters do count also for the trophies (in case you want to spend them)

 

As for the previous point... glad that, although we perceive the rules clearly in a different way, at least we agree on the point that looking at the chits would be cheating ;-) this said, feel free to play the way you are more comfy with :)


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#34 The Professor

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:21 AM

Julia,

 

     Right!  Thanks for the FAQ post...I used an example which was actually supported by the FAQ.  A better example might be a Clue token added to a location with an Investigator at the beginning of the round due to a Visions of Hypnos card...again, I allow my Investigators to grab-and-go.

 

Ciao,

Joe


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#35 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:22 AM

My problem is - I don't feel free when I play my way, I want to play it the "right way" :)

 

 

There is one more thing I can remember now, where rules can be exploited to "cheat".

For example you choose to encounter Man in Black while playing Harvey. In this case every failed dice is a 1 Sanity loss. The card doesn't say "They roll dice equal to their current Sanity and lose Sanity equal to the numver of failed dice".

Well, you see what I am implying.

Or maybe I am just a crazy ex-MTG player... most likely.



#36 Julia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:48 AM

My problem is - I don't feel free when I play my way, I want to play it the "right way" :)

 

 

There is one more thing I can remember now, where rules can be exploited to "cheat".

For example you choose to encounter Man in Black while playing Harvey. In this case every failed dice is a 1 Sanity loss. The card doesn't say "They roll dice equal to their current Sanity and lose Sanity equal to the numver of failed dice".

Well, you see what I am implying.

Or maybe I am just a crazy ex-MTG player... most likely.

 

This one was covered by Kevin Wilson:

 

4. Does the Professor's Strong Mind ability work against the likes of the Mythos card "The Man in Black", where one must roll a die for every point of Sanity and lose it on a failure? The same question applies to the Gangster's Strong Body ability and the Mythos card "Blood Magic".

Yes. In this case, the Sanity loss isn't described as a cost in any fashion. That is, you aren't paying the Sanity in order to mess around with the Man in Black. Instead, dealing with the Man in Black causes you to lose Sanity.

 

(so, I don't see any way you can cheat or mess up with the rules)


Edited by Julia, 24 October 2013 - 09:48 AM.

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#37 ceridan13

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:21 AM

Julia, I am sorry, I think I didn't make myself clear this time. 

My question is not a loss/cost one. That I understand fully.

The thing is: there is a difference between loosing 5 sanity and loosing 1 sanity 5 times. But again, this is my understanding form my previous (loooooooong time ago) MTG experience.



#38 Julia

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:28 AM

Aye, sorry, I answered improperly :D I see your point


Edited by Julia, 24 October 2013 - 10:31 AM.

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#39 Gwen6934

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

Ilove horror and some of the hp lovecraft movies. I just baught call of cthulu game and waiting on it to show up in the mail.

 

is there any advice for a novice on here and in the game. I have no idea what AO means. Also id like to pick up some of the mini pieces before I play does anyone know the 16 investigators that are in the base game. and what key monsters I should get. Please feel free to PM me I can use any advice and help. I added Mandy to the top of my list to buy.



#40 dj2.0

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:36 PM

AO is Ancient One. Check out the Arkham Horror Wiki elsewhere for the figures you might need. Welcome to he asylum, or the carnival take your pick :-)
Best advice to a novice I have: clues and time must never be wasted.
Ceridan13, you need to define, for yourself, what the 'right' way means in this, is it some strict linguistic definition of weasely words (to which you will never receive a full complement of satisfactory clarification) , or how most of us play? I would recommend common sense here, and do it the way most of the people I know do, and I think most people here too - which is to say, Julia is right :-)
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