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Impressions of Faith and Coin?


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#41 CaptainRemiVandigrath

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:02 AM

Also, having just finished reading through it, I think the adventure in F&C is the best mini adventure they've written for one of the focus books so far. There are a lot of modular encounters, a few bits of fun lore about the locations, and great hooks for future adventures or for filling out the exploration.

This might not be a book for someone not interested in the Imperial Creed, but otherwise is an excellent addition.

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#42 Cymbel

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

 

What can you tell me about the new Reqliquarist career? Rank? Can Rogue Traders take it?

 

Any interesting new gear items?

Yes, RT is one of the five, and it's good from the get-go. They spend Fate to read history, if you weren't already spending Fate. Otherwise, they have some decent Advances access, mostly Skills.

 

Conversion beamers made it in. Some crazy grenades and missiles, and Space Marine melee weapons, sized for regular folks, too. A few of the relics are nice, but relics, and so one-of-a-kind, hard to get, and then deciding to use it, or display it, sort of like Skyrim.

 

It looks like my favorite AC in this book, and feels a bit like the Colt Trade Broker, Xenographer, and other "stuff-specialist" options.

 

Darn, I have been a little cash strapped but I may have to pick this up soon. Any cool power weapons?



#43 venkelos

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:38 AM

Cognatine Hammer, Lightning Claws (yep, not just for Space Marines, anymore), Witch Lance, Praesidium Protectiva, Storm Shields, and a relic or two.



#44 Nameless2all

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:59 PM

Ohh ohh ohh Storm Shields? *becomes giddy like a little kid* I want! I want! :)

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#45 Asajev

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:20 PM

what the party needs a gene modded arch militant with quasi terminator armor storm shield and thunder hammer thats going to be fun.



#46 Amroth

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:43 PM

Lol at this rate the Astartes will soon be obsolete!



#47 venkelos

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:36 AM

Then who will the fanboys drool over, and get into fights about who's best?

 

Occasionally, this game makes me go "hmm", because it doesn't seem TOO difficult to get some good troops, maybe some Gland Warriors, if you know the right Magos, and supply them with power armor, something the military can only get for their Tech-Priests, and Space Marines keep for ages, since making more is a pain, but which the Rogue Trader can get by the boxful. Does sort of make the "one per planet" Marines seem a bit unnecessary. Of course, I do know that some things aren't THAT easy for even affluent Rogue Traders to find/acquire, but it was nowhere so easy in DH, and an Inquisitor is SUPPOSED to have the authority to get whatever they need.



#48 CaptainRemiVandigrath

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:51 AM

I think part of it is in the roles: theoretically, a rogue trader is bringing back new resources and new technology to the Forge World he's build relations with. For a good rogue trader - the kind that could get suits of power armor - they're likely to be substantial amounts of resources and fine pieces of archeotech (or Xenos tech, depending on the Magos). In those cases, the RT is paying huge amounts for a handful of suits that would otherwise be produced for crusading fleets.

Now, this may just be me, but I've always seen an inquisitor as more of a zero-sum player. They exist to destroy not create. A Forge World would be much less likely to trade for a hundred suits of quality power armor when the Inquisitor is just demanding it.

Of course, that isn't a hard and fast rule, since even the RT book shows that there are some Inquisitor lords with the resources and connections to get what they want. But considering there are a lot of RTs who never obtain armies of gene modded aired
Monsters, that doesn't seem misplaced.

I guess it all depends on what the GM is willing to allow.


Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if you have a good relationship with the Magos armorer, and bring a Forge World back an archeotech ship and a couple transports full of rare raw materials, they might be willing to let you have a few suits of armor otherwise meant for a crusade a few sectors away (GM willing)

Edited by CaptainRemiVandigrath, 02 November 2013 - 08:03 AM.

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#49 WilliamAsher

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 05:47 PM

Note that Astartes have a great deal more benefits than just wearing power armor. If you really look at them, they have some benefits that no amount of gene modding is going to copy. My players have elite troops with excellent equipment that kick ass across the Expanse. Those troops still look upon the Astartes with awe, for good reason. Your troops aren't going to have Unnatural Toughness or the ability to fight for days without sleep or fatigue becoming a factor. Your troops will never get centuries of combat experience, or have access to some of the relics that they do. You will never have superhuman troops that are also psykers who don't really have to worry about Daemons ripping their way out of their heads. Your troops are far more likely to cave in to fear fighting daemons, or be hopelessly mutated by warp exposure as well. Astartes are seen as Angels of Death ™ because their various benifits add up to make supremely effective troops.

I am not saying that you shouldn't build yourself those elite units. Those units will save your life and make capturing more ships for your fleet relatively easy. Having 10,000 experienced combat troops to do boarding actions makes it a lot easier to take a ship by boarding. Having elite soldiers as your personal guard means that you are a lot more likely to survive encounters. Equipping your troops with filament grenades and plasma flamethrowers will definitely pay off. From a Imperium wide perspective elite troops are extremely important and win wars. But remember, step quietly around the Angels of Death lest they turn their eyes upon you. (Or figure out a way to get a Kill Brother or two for your personal guard....)

Edited by WilliamAsher, 02 November 2013 - 05:50 PM.


#50 Amroth

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:36 PM

My comment was purely tongue in cheek ;-). Still the gap between the Angels of Death and us mere mortals does seem to be diminishing :)



#51 venkelos

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:19 PM

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Space Marines are going anywhere; there are some tasks that only Space Marines, and occasionally only Terminators, can handle.

 

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

 

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress. :P



#52 Fgdsfg

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:00 PM

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Space Marines are going anywhere; there are some tasks that only Space Marines, and occasionally only Terminators, can handle.

 

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

 

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress. :P

The thing is, they're not categorized as such. It's not really the idea that "The Emperor made them, so it's OK" - it's that they don't fit the category of "mutant" as the Imperium and it's people uses it. They simply aren't mutants, they're Space Marines.

Now, from your point of view, they are essentially mutants, if engineered. But from the perspective of the Imperium at large, nothing could be further from the truth. If you think about it, we have this double-think in the world today, in a great many cases, where people often react with outright hostility if you point it out; take the issue of race as an example. Talk about sub-species, races and breeds of any range of animal species, and nobody bats an eye. Talk about race in the context of humans, and everyone loses their minds.

Another example in the same vein would be how people would define - or rather, try to not define - "mutant". There's all kinds of mutations running around out there - take sickle-cell disease, for example. Or any number of hereditary diseases. Technically mutations, too, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone calling these people "mutants".

The same goes for "psyker".

Call the Emperor a psyker and you'll probably get shot, filthy heretic. And what was that? You even suggested he was a sorcerer, you double-heretic scum?


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#53 Amroth

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:05 AM

Yep that's right he's not a Psyker he's a God manifesting his divine powers, so that makes it okay.

 

And of course the Astartes are his angels of death created in his image so that's okay too, never mind the chameleon skin, spitting venom all the other what not!

 

All hail the hypocritical Imperium!



#54 Chacha

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:25 AM

Yep that's right he's not a Psyker he's a God manifesting his divine powers, so that makes it okay.

 

And of course the Astartes are his angels of death created in his image so that's okay too, never mind the chameleon skin, spitting venom all the other what not!

 

All hail the hypocritical Imperium!

I find it rather ironic that most people seem to act as if out-of-character knowledge (Emperor was psyker) is something that the average joe, let alone anyone, actually knows about.


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#55 Amroth

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:57 AM

Of course they don't know, the average Imperial citizen is nothing more than an ignorant space age peasant and for those who do know it's in their best interests not to let the cat out of the bag, less they lose all control and credibility.

 

It's funny from outside perspective and quite a clever satire of religion in general I.E. "all magic is evil and practiced only by the most vile practitioners of the dark arts......  that's exactly the same as the powers our God/Saviour/Prophet etc manifests you say..... oh no, no not at all those are divine miracles so they are completely different and completely okay!".



#56 venkelos

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:52 AM

 

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Space Marines are going anywhere; there are some tasks that only Space Marines, and occasionally only Terminators, can handle.

 

As a completely unrelated aside, I do occasionally find it weird how the Imperium is taught to feel a way, but then a blatant reverse happens with someone important, and that exception is allowed. In some ways, anyway, I view the Space Marines as mutants; they are Humans who have been dramatically changed into something more. Under most circumstances, the Imperial mantra is "suffer not the mutant", but because these mutants were created by the Emperor, they are perfectly fine (minus a few fools who maybe do view Space Marines negatively, but don't dare say so). The Emperor is my other example. Humans HATE psykers, no matter how critical to the Imperium a select variety might be, and the really powerful ones are feared and burned, yet the Emperor, the most powerful psyker on record, is loved and adored; no one ever feared that His power might backfire, and place Khorne physically in front of everyone.

 

In both cases, I know that there is established stuff to cushion these into being acceptable, but it still seems odd for a group who reviles "different", but worships a super-psyker sorcerer (shamans kind of seem to use "magic") and his army of mutant supermen. Two blazing examples of being as far from baseline Human as possible, yet revered by those who seek to stagnate Human development and progress. :P

The thing is, they're not categorized as such. It's not really the idea that "The Emperor made them, so it's OK" - it's that they don't fit the category of "mutant" as the Imperium and it's people uses it. They simply aren't mutants, they're Space Marines.

Now, from your point of view, they are essentially mutants, if engineered. But from the perspective of the Imperium at large, nothing could be further from the truth. If you think about it, we have this double-think in the world today, in a great many cases, where people often react with outright hostility if you point it out; take the issue of race as an example. Talk about sub-species, races and breeds of any range of animal species, and nobody bats an eye. Talk about race in the context of humans, and everyone loses their minds.

Another example in the same vein would be how people would define - or rather, try to not define - "mutant". There's all kinds of mutations running around out there - take sickle-cell disease, for example. Or any number of hereditary diseases. Technically mutations, too, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone calling these people "mutants".

The same goes for "psyker".

Call the Emperor a psyker and you'll probably get shot, filthy heretic. And what was that? You even suggested he was a sorcerer, you double-heretic scum?

 

Sometimes, I am good at forgetting what the "typical" Imperial citizen might know, or even the "typical Player Character. Most of my bit there is meant to be from an outside looking in perspective; WE know these things about the Emperor, or the Space Marines, and some other beings might (the Tech-Priest magos who oversee the maintenance of the Golden Throne, or train the Techmarines on Mars, the High Lords of Terra, Eldrad, and a few others), but some bits might be outside the purview of any regular PC, unless the are among some truly nosebleed echelons of power.

 

As for calling Him a Sorcerer, that's because he is sometimes described as using magic, being a shaman (I see shamans as wise, and possibly magically-inclined individuals). "Magic" in 40K seems to be the purview of Sorcerers, using bizarre psychic powers in a way even regular psykers don't.

 

Of course they don't know, the average Imperial citizen is nothing more than an ignorant space age peasant and for those who do know it's in their best interests not to let the cat out of the bag, less they lose all control and credibility.

 

It's funny from outside perspective and quite a clever satire of religion in general I.E. "all magic is evil and practiced only by the most vile practitioners of the dark arts......  that's exactly the same as the powers our God/Saviour/Prophet etc manifests you say..... oh no, no not at all those are divine miracles so they are completely different and completely okay!".

Yeah, we view necromancers as evil, corrupting the cycles of life and death, perverting the souls of the departed, yadda yadda yadda, but Jesus did it, and it's a miracle. Not trying to smack on Jesus, but he might be the only church-accepted necromancer I ever heard of. It's not black magic when he does it; it's a miracle. On the plus side, Lazarus also wasn't enslaved as a zombie/servitor, and was allowed to return to death, so maybe that helps.



#57 Radwraith

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

 

 

I really would like to see a substantial book on Explorators though.  I took a brief look at The Lathe Worlds, but didn't feel overly impressed by it (admittingly, I may not have caught the good stuff).

The problem with The Lathe Worlds is that they focus on exactly that - The Lathe Worlds. A lot of the Mechanicus info in them is still viable, like the info on the various subfactions and the organization of the Mechanicus, but there isn't really that much to add about the Explorator fleets that hasn't been mentioned in various other books. Getting a really small supplement on the Explorator fleet, no more than seventy pages, would be kind of cool though. It'd fill out and collect the data from other sources and present it in a more collected form.

 

Why wouldn't there be more to add about the Explorator fleets that hasn't been mentioned in various other books? As far as I'm aware, very little has been covered in the books, pertaining to Explorator fleets, I mean.

 

Especially since an Explorator fleet might be the one place you might find a "Legitimate" Battleship in the expanse: The Ark mechanicus class of Explorator vessels! It might make an interesting variant game. The Admech does go out into the unknown and when they do, They go in style! The Battleship would serve as the focal point of a whole task force or Admech battlefleet but they operate under much the same auspices as a Rogue trader. Their focus is of course, somewhat different (The recovery of technology instead of pure profit) but their methods are pretty similar. :)



#58 Lynata

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:41 AM

The thing is, they're not categorized as such. It's not really the idea that "The Emperor made them, so it's OK" - it's that they don't fit the category of "mutant" as the Imperium and it's people uses it. They simply aren't mutants, they're Space Marines.

 

Small nitpick, but back in the 2E SoB Codex it's been mentioned that, yes, essentially it really is the idea that "the Emperor made them, so it's OK" - and even then this is just one of two prevalent views within the Ecclesiarchy, the opposing perspective being that the Space Marines are dangerous abhumans with barbaric if not heretical traditions.
 
It may actually be possible that this aspect has been downplayed somewhat in the recent years, though, seeing as I've not read a similar paragraph again in a later book. If so, I'd find it a bit unfortunate, as I much prefer the contradictory perception. It just seems more "grey" (and fitting for the IoM), and I generally like grey as opposed to boring black/white portrayals. ;)

 

Note that Astartes have a great deal more benefits than just wearing power armor. If you really look at them, they have some benefits that no amount of gene modding is going to copy. My players have elite troops with excellent equipment that kick ass across the Expanse. Those troops still look upon the Astartes with awe, for good reason.

 

In a nutshell, this. Now, depending on which sources you're looking at, Space Marines make miserable line troops because they're so few yet can still be put down by someone's lasgun - if you want to fight an all out war, you're better off with a real army, just like the Space Marines need to call in the Imperial Guard when they encounter too much resistance.
 
However, they still represent the single most powerful concentration of strike potential in a single square meter, so whenever you need elite shock troops to blow an opening into an enemy fortification, or take down the enemy commander and disrupt their leadership, or have other "commando operations" that need a small but powerful force of infantry, there's nothing in the Imperium that equals the Astartes.
 
And that's before you add in the morale effect from Imperial propaganda!
 
Another player once equaled Space Marines to a "force multiplier", strengthening a regular army's strategic value by allowing it to use the small yet critical victories won by cleverly inserted Space Marine strike forces to boost the main force's advance (or defense). Perhaps consider this similar to the role and purpose of airborne units in WW2.

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#59 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 02:32 AM

 

Small nitpick, but back in the 2E SoB Codex it's been mentioned that, yes, essentially it really is the idea that "the Emperor made them, so it's OK" - and even then this is just one of two prevalent views within the Ecclesiarchy, the opposing perspective being that the Space Marines are dangerous abhumans with barbaric if not heretical traditions.
It may actually be possible that this aspect has been downplayed somewhat in the recent years, though, seeing as I've not read a similar paragraph again in a later book.

 

 
Reading Faith and Fire, and its sequal Hammer and Anvil, that's still exactly how the Sororitas see space marines.

Edited by Magnus Grendel, 11 November 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#60 Lynata

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:59 AM

Reading Faith and Fire, and its sequal Hammer and Anvil, that's still exactly how the Sororitas see space marines.

 

Oh, yes, I mean in GW's own books. I like Mr. Swallow's novels for largely staying faithful to the original Sororitas fluff, but I'd still like to see this topic come up in the core studio's material too. Novels are, at the end of the day, only that specific author's interpretation, and whilst technically a novel is just as valid (or irrelevant) as, say, a codex, the latter still has a higher chance of influencing subsequent publications, and thus steer general perception. ;)

 

For an opposing interpretation, apparently Blood of Asaheim would do a "good" job. Here's two short reviews from two other SoB fans --->

 

 

Blood of Asaheim? The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves? And Sisters who go around letting plague victims into their perimeter, in the midst of a Nurglite incursion? If that's the alternate version, then I think I vastly prefer the studio fluff version, thanks.

They have an okay portrayal in that they aren't shown as drinking, flirting or gambling, I guess. 

 
However, they also don't do anything until the Wolves tell them to. They have a month before the enemy army arrives to besiege their walled city. They don't make any preparations to defend said city until the Wolves arrive two days before the army arrives. Literally none. 
 
They also allow plague carriers into the city in the name of sentimentality and charity ("I thought we were saving them" - a direct quote from the canoness, who then admits she was wrong and should have killed them as soon as the Space Wolves tell her so). 
 
The Sisterhoods Face Character, an ex-famulous who previously worked with the Inquisition, actively kills several of her Sisters in a fake infiltration raid in order to cover up and destroy Inquisition secrets... which she then tells to the person she was hiding them from anyway. Oh, and she admits to lacking faith and being a doubter. So the face character is an explicitly bad Battle Sister. 
 
Finally, a Palatine and five Sisters with flamers, along with a platoon of Imperial guardsmen, in an entrenched, defensive position manage to kill "dozens" of cultists before being overwhelmed and killed. Compare to the Wolves killing "thousands" and walking home. 
 
Somehow, this is portrayed as impressive. So, Blood of Asaheim may not have whorish, gambling Sisters... but it does have incompetent, lazy, treacherous and overall faithless Sisters. Even the Canoness says "I had lost faith and thought we were going to die until you arrived" - talking about an under-strength squad of Grey Hunters, who apparently are so awesome that they teach a Canoness of the Sisters of Battle to believe in the Emperor again. 
 
By the way, these are Wounded Heart sisters - they faced down the 13th black crusade, yet here they doubt, lose faith and give up because of a horde of cultists led by three plague marines. Three.

 

And really, Space Wolves, of all Chapters. Geez. :P


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