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#21 richsabre

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 06:15 AM

 


Maybe this cycle has been a reboot for new players to get into the game, since they may not have all the player cards to work with. maybe the scenarios are easier when a player has access to the complete set of player cards.

I would love to hear a new players perspective on this. Of course i could limit myself to the core set, HoN and cards from the cycle. Has anyone tried that? Any difference?

Hopefully, Morgul Vale will turn this around for me.

 

that is a good point.

as most here will know i am certainly not a new player, however i do consider myself more of a theme player than anything else, hence i enjoy a quest i can take my less powerful, theme-rich decks against (though some of my theme decks are quite powerful now we have hobbits and dwarves well developed)

 

so i have quite enjoyed the easier aspects of the current cycle and i like that ffg are still thinking from an 'lcg' perspective, and not a 'buy to win' perspective.

 

however for players like myself and many others on here who have all the current card pool i see how it can be dissapointing. a game is there to win afterall, and even though i dont come from the same line of thought as glaurung, i still sometimes want a super hard quest to put only my very best decks against....and of course get that 1 in 50 win rate ;)

 

i know most hate when i say this so i wont dwell on it, but i usually take a weaker deck against these easy quests. last night i took a two different decks against assault on osgilliath, one was an outlands deck with all the power cards which won in a couple of rounds, and the other was a dwarf deck that was theme based that only just lost in many rounds.

 

out of those i found the loss far more exciting as it felt like a true gaming feeling, not that 'what just happened' experience you get with quick wins.

 

even as i type this i do wonder why, out of all cycles, this one is a return to the easier. given gondor's position on the frontline between the free peoples and sauron i initially imagined this cycle to be brutally hard....the hiers of numenor pack was more like this, however the cycle itself has a more narrative driven theme to it.

 

i particularly like this, but as i say above it was unexpected for me.

 

i think the designers have a particularly hard job in balancing challenge with access. i see this as one of the weaknesses of the lcg format - new quests have to be both accessible to keep to the 'lcg' format but also provide enough of a challenge to keep older gamers satisfied.

 

if this is to get new players into the game then i am all for it, hopefully it works. more players = more life for the game

 

rich


Edited by richsabre, 20 October 2013 - 06:19 AM.

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#22 13thcaesar

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 07:34 AM

I tested four decks for 4 players (in December wants to play campaigns Lotr with my group, so I tried to create four good decks).
 
I played  Cycle Against Shadow (to AOO, BOG is waiting for me in Poland) - I have to say, that for four player TDF and AOO are deadly. especially TDF.

 

Has anyone tried to play TDF, AOO and BOG for 4 players?



#23 Djenni

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 07:52 AM

I agree that the quests are good and well balanced for most parts but longer quests with more quest cards would be more than welcome and maybe more random quest factors like in FoS or Passage through Mirkwood, where you randomly select the next quest card. 


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#24 richsabre

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:12 AM

I agree that the quests are good and well balanced for most parts but longer quests with more quest cards would be more than welcome and maybe more random quest factors like in FoS or Passage through Mirkwood, where you randomly select the next quest card. 

yes these things are good....i do think this is already what ffg are doing though. for instance heirs of numenor quest 3 has several different paths to victory, and stewards fear has to be the most complex quest to date. i just think that the designers are trying to balance this out with some more simple quests to get the balance right.

 

just out of interest here is the quests what i consider to be the more complex ones:

escape from dol guldur

return to mirkwood

road to rivendell (i include this for the 20 quest point card....i really love that and would like to see more of these)

foundations of stone

hiers of numenor 3 (forgot the name)

stewards fear

 

the simple ones i would say are (ignoring passage through mirkwood as a learning quest):

conflict at the carrock

emyn muil

khazad dum 2

watcher in the water

the long dark

shadow and flame

amon din

assault on osgilliath

 

the others i consider in between the two. i make this a few more simple ones than complex ones, however this is to be expected i think.

 

obviously my logic is pretty simple here, but i feel that we may just be thinking along the lines of this cycle being too easy and simple because the last 2 or 3 have been so....however there has also been a very complex beginning and hopefully morgul vale will finish the same

 

maybe others disagree ;)

rich


Edited by richsabre, 20 October 2013 - 08:14 AM.

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#25 Djenni

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

 

I agree that the quests are good and well balanced for most parts but longer quests with more quest cards would be more than welcome and maybe more random quest factors like in FoS or Passage through Mirkwood, where you randomly select the next quest card. 

yes these things are good....i do think this is already what ffg are doing though. for instance heirs of numenor quest 3 has several different paths to victory, and stewards fear has to be the most complex quest to date. i just think that the designers are trying to balance this out with some more simple quests to get the balance right.

 

just out of interest here is the quests what i consider to be the more complex ones:

escape from dol guldur

return to mirkwood

road to rivendell (i include this for the 20 quest point card....i really love that and would like to see more of these)

foundations of stone

hiers of numenor 3 (forgot the name)

stewards fear

 

the simple ones i would say are (ignoring passage through mirkwood as a learning quest):

conflict at the carrock

emyn muil

khazad dum 2

watcher in the water

the long dark

shadow and flame

amon din

assault on osgilliath

 

the others i consider in between the two. i make this a few more simple ones than complex ones, however this is to be expected i think.

 

obviously my logic is pretty simple here, but i feel that we may just be thinking along the lines of this cycle being too easy and simple because the last 2 or 3 have been so....however there has also been a very complex beginning and hopefully morgul vale will finish the same

 

maybe others disagree ;)

rich

 

Yes that's true, both Into Ithilien and Siege of Cair Andros offer some variants in the path to victory and SF is an absolutely brilliant quest. I have high hopes for Morgul Vale and i bet it's going to be a really difficult quest if it follows the pattern of the last quest of the cycle being the hardest (Return to Mirkwood and Shadow & Flame). 


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#26 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:06 AM

My feelings haven't changed. After Heirs of Numenor was released veteran players were warning newbs off of the box because it was "brutal". The release of the adventure packs was subsequently delayed and "easy mode" was released in short order. I think they downgraded the difficulty of the APs during the delay because you don't want to turn new players off your game.

As a pure solo player, Steward's Fear I thought was a very good quest, but the next four have been a bit disappointing.
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#27 Pharmboys2013

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:58 AM

derailing this dying topic real quick:  anyone find it...well not necessarily disappointing; but maybe just surprised that ranger decks are pretty terrible against this scenario?

 

Got my pack in yesterday and put a ranger deck together using the much anticipated Anborn and pretty much got wrecked.  Had much more success with a leadership/tactics build


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#28 Spurries

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:06 PM

Just played 2 games solo. Both wins with an experimental Gondor deck I have been working on the past few day. I don't think it is a particularly strong deck, but it handled this scenario pretty well. I think it is a neat quest, and the hidden mechanic can easly lead to an enemy swarm. Decks that cannot handle seige quests or multiple enimes engaging at once will struggle.

Was it easy? Sort of, it did have a challenge, and moments where I might lose. But, in the end it only took about 15 minutes to complete, and this is how many of this cycles scenarios are going. Cool mechanics, but very short to complete, which tends ro make it easier. One more quest card or some other win condition in these scenarios would extend the challenge of the game.

Waiting a month or more for 15 minute victory is kind of disapointing, especially when it does not push my deck building skills to try and solve the new puzzle of the scenario.

This is probably one of those quests that is pretty good with 2 players, and i bet with 4 it's really tough.

 

Make sure to post that deck when its done!  I basically just use/tweak yours haha.  Awesome decks 



#29 leptokurt

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:27 PM

 

I'm wondering if part of the dissappointment is simply a let down from the Black Riders quests which were great.


That certainly may be part of it. BR is not too difficult, which is fine, because the quests are really interesting, and there are cool decisions to be made, and the scenarios usually cannot be won in a few rounds. There is more game to them, which makes me feel like I have accomplished something when I complete each scenario. I don't have to loss to enjoy the game, but I would like scenarios that give me more than a few rounds of play before I win. With a longer scenario designs at least there is more of a chance for things to go wrong, or I may even threat out. Another scenario card for Amon Din, AOO, and BoG could have made these quests a much better experience and gave the scenarios more effort to complete. SF and TDF have more game to them because of this. Of course this is all from a solo perspective.

Maybe this cycle has been a reboot for new players to get into the game, since they may not have all the player cards to work with. maybe the scenarios are easier when a player has access to the complete set of player cards.

I would love to hear a new players perspective on this. Of course i could limit myself to the core set, HoN and cards from the cycle. Has anyone tried that? Any difference?

Hopefully, Morgul Vale will turn this around for me.

 

While I agree with most of what you're saying (haven't played BoG yet thanks to getting BR at the same time, but I trust your word here), I think this cycle has to offer some scenarios that take longer to play. TSF is not one of the longest, but it's certainly no quick rush through experience. And Druadan Forest can take ages (certainly one of my fav adventures) before ou get to convince the chieftain.

 

One problem is that FFG is apparently designing their quests for multiplayer. While that is ok, I think it would only take a little effort to adjust some mechanics to solo player mode. TSF became too difficult to play it solo, AaO turned out to be too easy. I wish they'd add some extra quest cards for solo play. Not in every game, but in those in which the number of players plays a bif role.


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#30 CaffeineAddict

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:16 AM

One problem is that FFG is apparently designing their quests for multiplayer. While that is ok, I think it would only take a little effort to adjust some mechanics to solo player mode. 

 

 

I agree - I play almost exclusively solo, and while i occasionally play two decks, I usually play one, and have found this cycle (after The Stewards Fear) to be a letdown. I got Blood of Gondor through the post a couple of days ago, and tried it out yesterday, with a tactics deck I usually reserve as backup to a stronger deck, and beat it three times in a row in 3-4 rounds each game, with no danger of being anywhere near losing in any of them. I think The Black Riders raised the bar for enjoyability of quests, so for the next release to be this is disappointing.



#31 Glaurung

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:36 AM

 

One problem is that FFG is apparently designing their quests for multiplayer. While that is ok, I think it would only take a little effort to adjust some mechanics to solo player mode. 

 

 

I agree - I play almost exclusively solo, and while i occasionally play two decks, I usually play one, and have found this cycle (after The Stewards Fear) to be a letdown. I got Blood of Gondor through the post a couple of days ago, and tried it out yesterday, with a tactics deck I usually reserve as backup to a stronger deck, and beat it three times in a row in 3-4 rounds each game, with no danger of being anywhere near losing in any of them. I think The Black Riders raised the bar for enjoyability of quests, so for the next release to be this is disappointing.

 

I long time tell about it.....you got the quest and win in without any problem......bad feeling. so disappointed to wait for 1 or more months and then just pass it in 15 min..........  


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#32 richsabre

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:49 AM

what i find interesting is that whilst many players on this thread are commenting on the easier side of this cycle, all the players who posted on my 'accessibiliy to the game' thread tended to support the design swing to accessibility for newcomers to the game.

 

i realise there were very few people who posted on that thread, so i would like to know what those who are dissapointed with this current cycle think of that topic (either here or on the other thread so this one doesnt get side tracked)

rich


Edited by richsabre, 27 October 2013 - 11:50 AM.

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#33 leptokurt

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:56 PM

I like BoG. Used and tweaked my Hobbit deck a bit. Lost most of the time, but finally won it. Pretty tough one, though tactics decks should have it easier. Nice design though a bit complicated with all these new rules and card effects.

 

 

As for the ongoing discussion about scenarios being too easy or too difficult:

 

As I see it there are mainly two ways to design a quest:

 

1) Make the quest difficult, so that only 2 or 3 special designed decks are able to win

 

2) Make the scenario easier, so that players can build a variety of decks to beat it

 

 

Currently we have a good mix of both attempts. SF is a scenario that is (way too for my taste) difficult in solo mode and challenging in two-handed mode. Amon Din is a scenario that can be beaten easily with a proper deck, but players can be creative and test multiple decks against it.

 

I prefer the second attempt myself. Building themed decks that might not be the most powerful, but can still beat a scenario is a challenge that is so much more fun than simply putting three Test of Will in your hand, playing Sneak Gandalf and letting Asfaloth ding all the dirty exploration all of the time. Or to put an army of Dwarves in with bilion synergies in your deck.

 

Each scenario can be fun, if you only forget about building the best deck possible. Restrict yourself!


Edited by leptokurt, 27 October 2013 - 05:57 PM.

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#34 richsabre

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:50 AM

I prefer the second attempt myself. Building themed decks that might not be the most powerful, but can still beat a scenario is a challenge that is so much more fun than simply putting three Test of Will in your hand, playing Sneak Gandalf and letting Asfaloth ding all the dirty exploration all of the time. Or to put an army of Dwarves in with bilion synergies in your deck.

 

Each scenario can be fun, if you only forget about building the best deck possible. Restrict yourself!

exactly :)


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#35 Tracker1

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:20 AM

 
Each scenario can be fun, if you only forget about building the best deck possible. Restrict yourself!


I have been restricting myself, i don't play outlands or dwarves anymore. I'm starting to eliminate sp Glorfindel from my decks. I'm designing decks that I consider to be sub par and experimental, meaning that i have not landed on the right synergy for the deck. These decks are interesting and fun to play, but i am kind of shocked when i play a deck like this against a new scenario and it wins first try. That type of experience kind of puts a dead end to the deck building experince, since i am already using a deck that in my opinion is mediocre and still needs more tweaking.

What am i to do? Make an an even worse deck to enjoy the game. The challenge of the game then starts to become how weak of a deck can i make to beat an easy scenario, rather than how can I make a great deck to take on the challenge of a difficult scenario.

Rich's question about player accessibility may play into this cycle. I think an interview with the Caleb mentioned that they also playtest the whole cycle with just the cards from the core, delux expansion and the current cycle. So, if they are expecting a player to get victories with just those products, then a player who has three cores and everything else is probably going to feel these scenarios are easier.

My fear for the veteran players is that each deluxe expansion and the following cycle may look similar in terms of difficulty, since FFG will want to make sure they can continue to pull in new players with each new cycle, and give them some success to want to continue playing. Probably one scenario each cycle will be really big challenge, in this cycle i hope that will be Morgul Vale, although I must say HoN scenarios did deliver, but many players were outraged by the difficulty, so we might not see that again.

The challenge for veteran players is going to come with nightmare packs, which at this point I agree Glaurung that they should be made available on release of the AP, since it will ensure that new players and old will be satisfied right away.
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#36 Distractionbeast

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:10 AM

Here's a suggestion (I haven't tried yet):

 

For easier scenarios, just treat the number of players as +1.  If you're soloing, reveal 2 cards during staging and Archery X (number of players) becomes 2 for example.  That would ramp up the challenge substantially for solo players and still quite a bit for 2-3 players. 

 

If you try it, let us know how well it works.



#37 koriakin97

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:12 AM

I don't think they will publish nightmare along with normal pack, as they said that they response to player strategies.

#38 leptokurt

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:36 AM


What am i to do? Make an an even worse deck to enjoy the game. The challenge of the game then starts to become how weak of a deck can i make to beat an easy scenario, rather than how can I make a great deck to take on the challenge of a difficult scenario.


 

I'd call it "searching for a challenge" myself. Choose a theme, build a deck and try to master the scenario with a deck that at first glance isn't designed to beat the scenario. Try a Hobbit deck against BoG, for example. I am having tons of fun right now, as BoG allows you to make a lot of tactical decisions, and the Hobbits' traits play right into that.

 

Perhaps the true problem does not lie within the scenarios, but it is caused by over-powered player cards?

 

I stand with my opinion that BoG is a tough scenario when you're not using tactics decks. Yes, the second stage could be a bit more challenging, as I rarely have hidden cards when I enter this stage. But the first stage is full of making tough decisions and I seldom found myself thinking that long about which card to play.

 

The second thing that is a bit bothersome are all these new mechanisms and card effects. I wouldn't be able to finish this scenario in 15 minutes even if I wanted to, because I still have to check the encounter cards' tetxts carefully.

 

Otherwise: excellent scenario!



#39 CaffeineAddict

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:26 PM

Here's a suggestion (I haven't tried yet):

 

For easier scenarios, just treat the number of players as +1.  If you're soloing, reveal 2 cards during staging and Archery X (number of players) becomes 2 for example.  That would ramp up the challenge substantially for solo players and still quite a bit for 2-3 players. 

 

If you try it, let us know how well it works.

 

I quite like that idea, I'll give it a go. That might go a way to fixing Assault on Osgiliath/Druadan Forest for solo play, at least.



#40 CaffeineAddict

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:14 PM

 

Here's a suggestion (I haven't tried yet):

 

For easier scenarios, just treat the number of players as +1.  If you're soloing, reveal 2 cards during staging and Archery X (number of players) becomes 2 for example.  That would ramp up the challenge substantially for solo players and still quite a bit for 2-3 players. 

 

If you try it, let us know how well it works.

 

I quite like that idea, I'll give it a go. That might go a way to fixing Assault on Osgiliath/Druadan Forest for solo play, at least.

 

 

Just tried a few games against Blood of Gondor, Solo, but as if there were 2 players, as suggested (revealing 2 cards per quest, setup as if two players, etc), and the same tactics deck that was breezing through the scenario no problem yesterday just got trounced four games in a row.






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