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Combat and Sacrifice questions


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#1 magadizer

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:13 PM

I played a game todya where my son did something unexpected with his ISB guy. He declared an attack with that guy, and then after I declared a defender, he sacrificed the unit, and then triggered the Executor's ability.

If a player sacrifices his only attacker during combat, is there still an edge battle?

If the Executor had killed my defender with this reaction, what would be the result? Is the battle cancelled at that point?

Thanks!
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#2 radiskull

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:52 PM

There is still an edge battle (which you will automatically win), and your defender will need to focus to strike. If you have tactics icons on him, that's not a terrible outcome. :)  You need to have a unit present to place cards in the edge battle.

 

Had the Executor killed your defender, then there would be an edge battle where no cards could be played followed by a strike step where no units focused. This is almost never useful (although something like Chewbacca's Bowcaster could be used to make Chewie strike).



#3 magadizer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:53 PM

Thanks!
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#4 stormwolf27

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:43 AM

as I understand it, if this was triggered before edge battle and sacced the only attacker and killed the only defender, it would negate the engagement, as you need at least one unit in an engagement to participate in an edge battle or strike. Even if it didn't negate it, things like Chewbacca's ability with his bowcaster wouldn't work, because it would skip to step 6 of the resolution as there are no participating units.


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#5 PBrennan

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

Unless I've missed a countermanding ruling somewhere along the line (?), I'm not sure that this is quite true. Even if neither side ends up having a participating unit, the attacker wins the edge, then the engagement resolution flowchart on page 31 is still followed through, allowing me to strike once if I have an effect that allows it.


Edited by PBrennan, 15 October 2013 - 03:43 PM.


#6 stormwolf27

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:59 PM

Even if the engagement goes through, it wouldn't matter if you get to strike or not with Chewbacca, unless on the offensive (which is not the case in the OP's question) because his strike has to resolve against a participating unit (he does not have targeted strike).


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#7 PBrennan

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:46 PM

At some point there's going to be some combination that makes it meaningful though, so it's best to lay out the actual rule whether it's relevant now or not in order to lay the correct foundation for later. For example, there are/will be effects which depend on winning the edge battle, so saying there's no edge battle is misleading, as is saying that the rest of the engagement is cancelled and there's no opportunity to strike, because there is. Using Echo Caverns on Cloud City Wing Guard to acquire a non-edge-enabled tactics icon and strike with it is a good example of how you can strike effectively in this situation, either as the attacker or the defender.


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#8 stormwolf27

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:58 AM

though I combed through the core rules and the FAQ and could find nothing relevant to this situation. If someone else has found it or has submitted a rules question and gotten a response, I'd like to see it. I have submitted a question of my own to FFG and, hopefully, will receive a response at some point.


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#9 Toqtamish

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:09 AM

No need to email FFG. The engagement steps must still be followed even though the participating units are gone does not mean the engagement ends. Exactly what PBrennan said. 



#10 stormwolf27

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

yes, well, pardon me if I don't take someone's word for it without precedent or being able to find anything relevant in any rules documents. I like to have official answers to either reference or be able to cite precedent in these situations. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone's got one... but rules are rules.


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#11 magadizer

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:27 AM

Glad I could spark such interesting discussion. At the time we played it, I assumed that there would be an edge battle in which the defender wins by default, and that the defender would have to focus to strike and resolve any applicable icons. Looks like my instinct was correct.


Edited by magadizer, 15 October 2013 - 10:27 AM.

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#12 Toqtamish

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:14 AM

Glad I could spark such interesting discussion. At the time we played it, I assumed that there would be an edge battle in which the defender wins by default, and that the defender would have to focus to strike and resolve any applicable icons. Looks like my instinct was correct.

yes you are correct. Engagement still was declared and the steps are still followed as per the rulebook flow chart at the back of the book. 

 

Stormwolf, when that "opinion" comes from one of the games editor and playtesters I take it to the bank. Also the FAQ states that the edge battle continues when all units are destroyed so no reason to think the rest of the engagement does not complete either. You just follow through the steps of the process. There is already units that can strike during an engagement even when not participating so continuing the engagement steps properly is important for those units. 


Edited by Toqtamish, 15 October 2013 - 11:29 AM.


#13 stormwolf27

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:11 PM

 

Glad I could spark such interesting discussion. At the time we played it, I assumed that there would be an edge battle in which the defender wins by default, and that the defender would have to focus to strike and resolve any applicable icons. Looks like my instinct was correct.

yes you are correct. Engagement still was declared and the steps are still followed as per the rulebook flow chart at the back of the book. 

 

Stormwolf, when that "opinion" comes from one of the games editor and playtesters I take it to the bank. Also the FAQ states that the edge battle continues when all units are destroyed so no reason to think the rest of the engagement does not complete either. You just follow through the steps of the process. There is already units that can strike during an engagement even when not participating so continuing the engagement steps properly is important for those units. 

 

the key word is "continues." that section of the flow chart is referring to counting edge totals if all units are destroyed during an edge battle.

 

I'm referring to destroying all units before an edge battle even starts, which is a different scenario than you are referring to.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#14 Toqtamish

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

I fail to see why you think at one point it cuts off and another point it doesn't. Even if all units are destroyed the engagement has still been declared and steps need to be followed.

 

Defender automatically wins the edge battle and could strike with units that can strike during an engagement when not participating. Also would trigger cards that trigger off of winning edge battles like Asteroid Sanctuary. 



#15 doctormungmung

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

The point that I'm not certain about is after various effects, an engagement has been declared, but there is neither an attacker nor a defender, who wins the edge?  Or, a slightly different question, if there is your opponent declares a defender, and then you remove that defender from the engagement before the edge battle, is it still a defended engagement and thus the defender would win ties, or is it undefended, and the attacker wins the edge battle?

 

I think that the attacker would win in that case (attacker - no defender).  Extrapolating that to the no-attacker no-defender engagement, I'd say that the attacking player would win the edge, not the defender.



#16 Darth Zilla

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

 

So here is my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Scenario: attacking player declares one attacker and the defending player declares one defender.  A situation occurs where the attacking player's unit is sacrificed but the defending player has a unit remaining.  The engagement continues however the defending player would win the edge battle because you have to have at least one particpating unit in the engagment to place cards in an edge stack.  the attacking player can then still strike with a unit that has the ability to strike from outside of the engement however they would not have the edge enabled icons. 

 

different scenario:  same situation (1 attacker and 1 defender) but in this case neither side has a participating unit (if the DS player defended with Ice Tromper and executed its ability before the edge battle for whatever reason - just for the sake of argument).

According to page 18 niether side would be able to edge because they must have at least one participating unit in the engagement however because their is no defending units the attacking player wins automatically and therefor would be able to strike with units from outside of the engagement, only this time, they would have their edge enabled icons in full use. 

 

Are both scenarios correct?

 

edited because I revised the situation many times  =)


Edited by Darth Zilla, 15 October 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#17 PBrennan

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:57 PM

Correct on both counts. The attacker always win the edge if, at the time the edge battle starts, there are no defending units. (I said defender for some brain fart reason yesterday when I was rushing ... working on another game, apologies.)

 

Re the engagement always continuing, I was in a debate a while back with the FFG guys over whether the engagement should continue or not when there are no participating units, and the decision was made to allow it to continue on, arguments being less rules errata and because it allows cool things like Backstabber and the CCWG/EC and Chewbacca/Bowcaster combos to happen.


Edited by PBrennan, 15 October 2013 - 03:59 PM.

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#18 Justanothercrow

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:45 AM

hello all!

 

i was playing a game with a friend last night in a (near) game winning situation arose.

 

the essence of this situation came down to this: can a player sacrifice a unit in play that has no text regarding sacrificing to trigger a reaction from another card that benefits from sacrificing cards?

 

in this case, the card i was trying to sacrifice was a Death Squadron Star Destroyer. 

 

thanks for any help guys!


Edited by Justanothercrow, 16 October 2013 - 11:45 AM.


#19 Toqtamish

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:46 AM

 

the essence of this situation came down to this: can a player sacrifice a unit in play that has no text regarding sacrificing to trigger a reaction from another card that benefits from sacrificing cards?

 

in this case, the card i was trying to sacrifice was a Death Squadron Star Destroyer. 

 

No you cannot just sacrifice a card without some sort of ability or event card that allows that to be done. 



#20 stormwolf27

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:37 PM

I actually sent a rules question email to FFG and this is the response I got, for those wishing to have clarification:

 

Hello,

 

The engagement should still resolve, following the appropriate steps in the flow chart on page 31 of the rulebook.

 
After the edge battle is complete, there is a player action window.
 
Then, there is a framework window, where the player who won the edge resolves one strike, if able. A unit may strike from outside the engagement at this time if it is able to do so.
 
Then, there is another player action window.
 
Then, there is a framework window, where the player who lost the edge battle resolves one strike, if able. A unit may strike from outside the engagement at this time if it is able to do so.
 
Then, there is another player action window.
 
At this point, there is a framework window that says "repeat if any participating units are still ready." If there are no ready participating units at this time, the game automatically proceeds to the "check for surviving units...." framework.
 

Nate French
Senior LCG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

Rule Question:
If all units are destroyed on both sides of an engagement, after defenders are declared, but before the edge battle... how is this resolved?

Does the defender automatically win the edge, since neither player is eligible to place cards in the edge stacks?

Or does the engagement fizzle?

Also, if it continues with the defender winning on a tie of 0-0, can they use Chewbacca's ability with his bowcaster to still strike from outside the engagement?


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka





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