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Monster surge placement


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#1 Lee418

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:52 AM

Could someone help me with the rule regarding the placement of 'Surge' monsters? I thought I had this one down. But after reading an old post on this forum I'm not so sure.

 

On page 9 of the AH rule book it says:

When placing monsters, they should be divided as evenly as possible among the open gates, with no gate having more monsters placed on it than the gate where the monster surge occured this turn.

  

Question: Is the distribution of 'surge monsters' among gates effected if there happen to be one or more monsters already on other gates?



#2 Julia

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:08 AM

I don't think so. Always played that monsters released by the surge should be devided as evenly as possible among the gates. Key word here:

 

"no gate having more monsters placed on it"

 

I've always read this "placed" as "the monsters placed because of the surge". Think about this the other way: the surging gate has four monsters, and you have two more gates with no monsters on, with a monster limit = 8. You have to place four monsters. According to a reading different than mine, you'd go for placing two monsters on each of the "empty" gates, like the surge had been centered somewhere else.

 

So, in this case, you'd place one monster on each gate, plus the fourth monster on the surging gate, for a final situation of 6-1-1 monsters on the gates (good luck with the '6')


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#3 Lee418

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:46 AM

I've always read this "placed" as "the monsters placed because of the surge".

 

That's how I've been interpreting that rule too. Great! :)

 

It was while trawling through some old posts that I stumbled upon a description of a monster surge where the distribution of monsters was done differently and no one queried the interpretation afterwards. That made run back to the rule book to check. The wording does seem a little ambiguous, and it wouldn't be the first time I've got things wrong. :rolleyes: So I thought I had better ask.

 

Thanks, Julia.   


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#4 Julia

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:56 AM

You're welcome :) Indeed, lawyering about this is certainly possible. There is an interesting example in the FAQ (pag. 3):

 

Example: There are 3 open gates (at the Black Cave, Science Building, and Unvisited Isle), 7 players, and no monsters in play when a mythos card is drawn that opens a gate at the Black Cave. This causes a monster surge: 7 monsters are drawn from the cup and placed on the open gates. They must be distributed as evenly as possible, so each of the 3 gates has 2 monsters placed on it, and the 7th monster is placed on the Black Cave, where the monster surge occurred. The Black Cave now has 3 monsters, while the other 2 open gates each have 2 monsters on them.

 

It is true that in the example you do not have monsters on the board, but the emphasys on the even distribution of monsters refers (clearly, I'd dare to say) to the 7 just drawn monsters (I believe; being not a native English speaker, there could be nuances I don't get) and not to the general board situation (otherwise the answer would have been worded differently, I think)


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#5 jackman51

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:49 AM

Yes completely agree with Julia on the placement--forget about monsters already on the board and divide them up that way. And decide how you're going to do it before you draw from the cup and look at them. I don't even look  until it's actually time to put one on its gate.



#6 ceridan13

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:37 PM

Yep, I think you are all right.

There is one more explanation in the FAQ that provides more clues on how it is to be resolved (though still a bit unclear):

 

Q: When happens during a monster surge when Kate Winthrop has an explored token in the same location as a gate other than one that has the monster surge? 
A: The surge is resolved as it normally would be, except monsters do not appear at Kate’s location. The total number of monsters is distributed as evenly as possible among the remaining open gates, with no gate having more monsters placed on it than the gate where the monster surge occurred this turn. (Note: her ability does not reduce the number of monster tokens drawn as a result of the surge, it simply redistributes them to other gates.)
 
If I understand this right, the rules refer to the total number of monsters to be placed at gates as a result of the monster surge.

Edited by ceridan13, 09 October 2013 - 10:37 PM.


#7 The Professor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:02 AM

To Julia's point, that's the interpretation I've used ~ yes, there are times, when due to the situation on the board, the 'placed' monsters will mean that the non-surge Gates actually have one or more monsters than the Gate that surged them.

 

To ceridan13's point, you would still attempt to "place" the monster...it would instead be Returned to the Cup


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#8 Julia

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:31 AM

 

Yep, I think you are all right.

There is one more explanation in the FAQ that provides more clues on how it is to be resolved (though still a bit unclear):

 

Q: When happens during a monster surge when Kate Winthrop has an explored token in the same location as a gate other than one that has the monster surge? 
A: The surge is resolved as it normally would be, except monsters do not appear at Kate’s location. The total number of monsters is distributed as evenly as possible among the remaining open gates, with no gate having more monsters placed on it than the gate where the monster surge occurred this turn. (Note: her ability does not reduce the number of monster tokens drawn as a result of the surge, it simply redistributes them to other gates.)
 
If I understand this right, the rules refer to the total number of monsters to be placed at gates as a result of the monster surge.

 

 

Ceridan, you're right on this issue: if Kate's not on the surging gate, and you have 4 monsters to place and three gates open (including Kate's), you simply put two monsters on each of the other two gates (unless you reach the monster limit, clearly)


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#9 Schwaig

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:34 AM

I think the best argument for this interpretation is found in the rulebook with this sentence:

If there is already an open gate at the location, a monster emerges from every open gate currently on the board.

This can only be true if you place the monsters equally ignoring how many monsters are already on the gates.

If you place them in way, that the monsters are equally distributed after placement, there are many situations where not every open gate has spawned at least one monster.


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#10 The Professor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

Julia,   

 

     I think maybe we're interpreting it a bit differently. :o

 

Cheers,

Joe


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#11 Julia

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:23 PM

Joe, I was under the same impression. Mind explaining why you interpret in such a way the FAQ wording? I can't figure out a way the "total number of monsters to be devided among the other gates" could reflect your interpretation; if that was the case, shoulnd't they have worded "resolve the monster surge as normal; monsters appearing at Kate's are returned to the cup instead"?

 

I believe the point is the surge focused somewhere else releases X monsters; these monsters must be placed on the board on eligible places. Kate's not eligible because of her Flux Stabilizer; hence, you distribute X among the other open gates.


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#12 The Professor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:44 PM

Julia,

 

    Right...so, for instance if there's a Gate/Monsters at the following Locations:

 

     1.) Black Cave w/2 Monsters;

     2.) Witch House w/5 Monsters; 

     3.) The Unnameable w/0 Monsters and Kate

 

     A monster surge hits at the Black Cave and there are four Investigators which is > the open gates, so 4 Monsters. 

 

    1st Monster: Black Cave, taking it to 3 Monsters 

    2nd Monster: Witch House, taking it to 6 Monsters 

    3rd Monster: To Kate's location...Return to the Cup

    4th Monster: to Black Cave...why, because of the four Monsters I could potentially place on the board, Kate sent one back, leaving only two locations for three Monsters inclusing the surge location, the Black Cave.  In the end, we placed two Monsters (which is more than other location) on the Black Cave (taking it to 5 Monsters) and only one Monster at the Witch House (taking it to 6 Monsters).  The total number of Monsters AFTER everything is placed seems irrelevant to me...it's about the placement of them.

 

     I hope I made that clear...

 

Cheers/Ciao,

Joe


Edited by The Professor, 10 October 2013 - 04:47 PM.

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#13 Julia

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:52 PM

Joe, thanks for the clarification, but this was clear since your first post. What I do not get is why you're reading that FAQ entry in this way. Is this a houserule? Or am I missing something in the FAQ? The more I read that FAQ entry, the more I'd solve your situation in this way: 4 monsters on 2 eligible gates, since no monsters can appear at Kate's.

Hence 2 monsters on the Black cave (4 total) + 2 monsters to the Witch House (6 total) (which clearly can't be because of the monster limit, but still, just to give an idea of the monsters distribution)


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#14 jackman51

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:42 PM

Julia,

 

    Right...so, for instance if there's a Gate/Monsters at the following Locations:

 

     1.) Black Cave w/2 Monsters;

     2.) Witch House w/5 Monsters; 

     3.) The Unnameable w/0 Monsters and Kate

 

     A monster surge hits at the Black Cave and there are four Investigators which is > the open gates, so 4 Monsters. 

 

    1st Monster: Black Cave, taking it to 3 Monsters 

    2nd Monster: Witch House, taking it to 6 Monsters 

    3rd Monster: To Kate's location...Return to the Cup

    4th Monster: to Black Cave...why, because of the four Monsters I could potentially place on the board, Kate sent one back, leaving only two locations for three Monsters inclusing the surge location, the Black Cave.  In the end, we placed two Monsters (which is more than other location) on the Black Cave (taking it to 5 Monsters) and only one Monster at the Witch House (taking it to 6 Monsters).  The total number of Monsters AFTER everything is placed seems irrelevant to me...it's about the placement of them.

 

     I hope I made that clear...

 

Cheers/Ciao,

Joe

Okay in this situation I believe no monsters appear in Arkham-they all go to the outskirts. Unless you were merely putting monsters on the gates to help illustrate your placement point--then, okay, my bad. But I believe in the Kate example Julia is interpreting placement the way I do it as well.


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#15 Julia

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:17 PM

Okay in this situation I believe no monsters appear in Arkham-they all go to the outskirts.
 

 

Correct. There are a couple of cases where this is totally possible to happen, still: if the terror level is 10, or if 4 of the 7 monsters already on the board are Spawn monsters (that do not count against the monster limit), such as Servants of Glaaki or Children of Abhoth


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#16 The Professor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:49 PM

Julia/Jackman51,

 

    Good catch...please ignore the fact that I did not mention the Monster Limit, but instead focused on the placement of Monsters and Kate's amazing, albeit rarely used, ability.   Based on the writing of the FAQ for which I have some issue (see Nightgaunt ruling), this is simply my well-articulated House Rule...Go Kate!

 

Cheers,

Joe


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