Jump to content



Photo

Trouble with the Find Gate spell


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:23 PM

Here is the situation:
 
An Investigator, who has a Find Gate spell, is in the left area of some Other World. A certian effect or action closed the return gate in Arkham and there are no other Gate to return thru.
But since I am in the left area and my movement phase is starting I have an option either to mobe to the right area or to try and cast Find Gate. Should I succeed in casting it, what happens?
 
1) As far as I understand I am unable to return back to Arkham anyway - there is no Gate to emerge from. Or should I still follow the card that says "Cast and exhaust to immediately return to Arkham from an Other World" even with no gates around? 
 
2) If the spell is a success but I can't return to Arkham due to no Gates to Arkham the Investigator still tries to go back home as if he was exiting OW from the right area. And he inevitably becomes Lost in Time and Space. Is this so?
 
3) The FAQ has a situation that is rather similar:
Q: If an investigator fails a combat check against a Nightgaunt while in Arkham and no gates are open, what happens? What about while in an Other World and no gates are open? (Note that this can occur if all gates have been closed but the investigators do not collectively have enough gate trophies to win.)
A: The combat immediately ends with no effect.
So when I follow this logic the Find Gate spell would simply have no effect - there are no Gates to find, just like the combat ability of NG fails for the same reason.
 
What do you think? People I asked so far say that the spell will take effect but since there is no Gate to Arkham the Investigator will immediately move to Lost in Time and Space.

 

 



#2 jackman51

jackman51

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:42 AM

I doubt very much the intention of the spell would be to permit choice 1 of your post--to me it seems pretty clear a Gate must exist in order to return to Arkham when you cast the spell.

 

That said the choices seem to me to be whether you can cast the spell at all under the circumstances of no Gate present or, if it is permissible, then you instead would be LITS. I suppose some tactical reason may exist for wanting to do this--I guess it would save you a turn in the OW since unless another gate opens somewhere (not unlikely really but perhaps you can't wait) you're going to be LITS anyway in the following turn after you went to the second space of that OW.

 

I guess I'd say you can indeed cast the spell even with no gate present but as a result of a success it would be LITS. We'll see what others here think and no agreement is found we'll ask the game's project lead at FFG.


Edited by jackman51, 09 October 2013 - 01:11 AM.


#3 dj2.0

dj2.0

    Member

  • Members
  • 909 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:23 AM

The same thing could also happen if you drew an encounter that returned you when all the gates are closed but you dont have enough trophies to win - if there is no gate, you are LiTaS. The strategic advantage is that you save a turn for a sanity and you get to leap on the first gate that opens.


Edited by dj2.0, 09 October 2013 - 02:24 AM.


#4 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:36 AM

Returning implies "from the gate you entered"; whenever something (an encounter, your movement, a spell, a Nightgaunt met in the OW) instructs you to return to Arkham and there is no open gate leading there, you go LiTaS.

 

So, aye, you're allowed to cast Find Gate even if there is no OW matching the one you're in. You go LiTaS instead (could be a wise choice if you believe you'll end up LiTaS anyhow)


Edited by Julia, 09 October 2013 - 04:36 AM.

We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#5 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:47 AM

Returning implies "from the gate you entered"; whenever something (an encounter, your movement, a spell, a Nightgaunt met in the OW) instructs you to return to Arkham and there is no open gate leading there, you go LiTaS.

 

So, aye, you're allowed to cast Find Gate even if there is no OW matching the one you're in. You go LiTaS instead (could be a wise choice if you believe you'll end up LiTaS anyhow)

 

This is just the case I am talking about - the Nightgaunt will not send you LITaS, as the FAQ says. Such a combat would end with no effect, since there are no gates around.

I think there is a difference between other cards and Nightgaunt situation, because Nightgaunt specificaly pushes you thru the gate, while other cards just say "return to Arkham".

So, in my understanding, if Find Gate spell requires a Gate to exist, it should fail. If no Gate is needed (and the "Find Gate" is just a spell name, not a mechanic) you will go LITaS.



#6 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:49 AM

We'll see what others here think and no agreement is found we'll ask the game's project lead at FFG.

Is it trully possible to get the developer's pov on this?



#7 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:24 AM

Ceridan, apologies, I was wrong with the Nightgaunt clause. Indeed, the FAQ is correct: the monster chit instructs the Nightgaunt to draw you through the closest gate, but since there are no open gates, he can't do anything and the combat ends. Sorry for this


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#8 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:31 AM

On the other hand, Find gate is pretty clear: it spells "return to Arkham". As per FAQ:

 

In general, whenever you “return to Arkham,” you reappear at a gate that leads to the Other World you were in and gain an “explored” marker.

 

So, you can't return to Arkham because there is no open gate, but when a game effects or action instructs you to return to Arkham and no matching gate is open, you're forced LiTaS.


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#9 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:36 AM

 

We'll see what others here think and no agreement is found we'll ask the game's project lead at FFG.

Is it trully possible to get the developer's pov on this?

 

 

The developer of the game is not working for FFG any longer; there's another guy who's responsible for these issues and his name is Tim Uren (Associate Creative Content Developer). He answered some of our questions in the past months, but the point is that we should ask clarifycations where there is a need for them, not for just checking the rules. For these issues, the forum works pretty well. Otherwise FFG will answer directly on the forum to any question.


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#10 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:37 AM

Yes, I see what you mean and most people seem to agree with the LiTaS conclusion. The Find Gate spell says nothing about using the closest or any other gate to get back to Arkham, unlike Nightgaunt's ability.

And yet I am intrigued to find out what developers think about this matter. What was their intention on using Find Gate? If you truly need a gate, then, in my understanding, the spell would fail just like Nightgaunt's ability...



#11 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:44 AM

Julia, since there is no answer in the Ofiicial Rules or FAQ, is my question the "clarification" situation you just mentioned or not really?



#12 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:16 AM

I see what you mean here. I'd say if a gate was required, it would have been mentioned somehow on the spell (like: Movement. Choose an open gate in Arkham leading to the OW you're currently in. Then cast Find Gate to return to Arkham). In this case, I agree with you, we're on a Nightgaunt similar issue and the spell will simply fail. But since there is no such a wording, then I'd say there is no issue. You summon your magical energies to return to Arkham and the spell gives you such power. Then you simply follow the rules for returning to Arkham.

 

As for knowing what was in Kevin's mind when he created the spell... it's hard to know, since he said he won't answer any rules questions about his games (it's stated on his website, where he suggests to contact the company producing the games), so unless you grab him at a convenction and ask him in person, it's not that easy to get what he had in mind originally.

 

I won't ask Tim about this either: it's not an ambiguous thing (let me make you a counter-example of one of the questions Tim answered lately: Zhar's special ability instruct players to roll dice whenever a new gate opens; if doubles are rolled, you draw and resolve a new Mythos. Problem was when rolling dice. After resolving completely the first Mythos? After opening the gate? and if the latter, what happens? You resolve the new card and then back to the former? or you just check if there's one new, and finish resolving the first one before moving on? This has a huge impact on the game: it determines what monsters go in the Outskirts, what environment or rumor - if multiples are drawn - stays in play and so on, and really the wording "when a new gate opens" was quite sloppy) if you play it as it is written.

 

This said, maybe you'd like to hear some more from the other veterans on the forum, to hear their takes on your question (Dj, Professor, Tibs, and so on), and then decide which way to go :)


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#13 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:54 AM

Thank you, Julia. I will, indeed, wait to see what other players think about this issue.



#14 The Professor

The Professor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,360 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:37 AM

Julia,

  

   I'm sorry for being late to the party.

 

ceridian13,

 

     I don't know if you have an alter-ego at bgg, but someone was posing the same question.  In short, the Nightgaunt ability, as has been stated ad nauseum, doesn't apply as it simply can't move you to a Gate that doesn't exist...the attempt isn't even made.  Now, with regard to the Find Gate spell, should you successfully cast the spell ~ you WILL attempt to move toward the nearest Gate and if one does not exist, you move directly to LiTaS in accordance with every other aspect of the game governing the departure of an Other World.  I'm not sure how much clearer we can all make regarding the universal interpretation of this matter, but suffice it to say with Julia and I you're looking at nearly a decade of play and over 500 games. 

 

Cheers,

Joe


Edited by The Professor, 09 October 2013 - 07:38 AM.

  • dj2.0 likes this

The Professor

http://crafthulhu.squarespace.com

 

 


#15 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:38 AM

Julia,

  

   I'm sorry for being late to the party.

 

It's never too late for you to join any party, Joe. Always a pleasure reading you :)


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#16 ceridan13

ceridan13

    Member

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:04 AM

Thank you, Professor!

Yes, I have already asked the same question at bgg, and as I've stated before people consider that I will move to LiTaS. Actually, I suggested this in my first post there but then started arguing with myself :)

 

At the same time your reply differs from the pov I've heard at bgg in one detail: you (same as me) think that Find Gate spell causes a player to search for a gate and use it. Most people insist that spell name has nothing to do with the spell mechanic and they have a good point here.

But while you and me both suggest that there should be a "Gate" component of the spell we come to different conclusions.

I maybe a bit thick-headed and stubborn but I assume, that the "nightgaunt" and "find gate" situations should be resolved in the same matter, since they both require a Gate to work.

And as I've noted on bgg I respect other players' experience and will (after discussing this with my group) follow the LiTaS way. But I don't feel convinced :) I still have my doubts but they could only be removed with a game designer, and I don't think that's gonna happen.

 

And btw there is another way to interpret this situation:

Someone at bgg wrote that in Arkham in case of doubts you should always decide against the player.

In this case against would mean not allowing to go LiTaS with Find Gate spell since it "shortens" the way back to Arkham for 1 turn.

Is this rule applicable here?



#17 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:14 AM

That's an unwritten law called "The Arkham Razor". It's not like a real rule, it's just a way people that have been playing this game for eons tend to joke about the way things should be fixed ("when in doubt, hit 'em all as hard as possible).

 

This is not really the case: going LiTas could be terrible if Yog is the AO, or can be even worse if the following Mythos card opens a gate to the OW you just left for LiTaS. But can also be a good thing, if you need to hurry up

 

Finally, I won't put too much emphasys on the fact that the Find Gate spell is called "Find Gate": it happened (quite a lot in their early games) that FFG made despicable decisions with wording (we don't really want to enter the debate Area vs Street Area vs Location, do we?), so, I won't lose hours of sleep thinking about this.

 

Anyway, if you don't feel comfortable with the way people look at this, play it the way you prefer! The most important thing is that you and your party have fun playing the game, and you're happy with the solutions you find :)


Edited by Julia, 09 October 2013 - 08:14 AM.

We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#18 dj2.0

dj2.0

    Member

  • Members
  • 909 posts

Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:47 AM

Ceridan13, I understand your desire to pick the brain that made AH over this and other issues - I spent nigh on 3 years trying to get a proto FAQ some attention in the FFG offices and querying the creators when they posted here - and while we did eventually get the FAQ we were waiting for, it was not really the FAQ we were waiting for...and this really proved to me that the creators had not given much thought to the many issues that can arise in a game with so many moving and modular parts...not that I am suggesting they should have, more that they really couldn't have, given the size of the project and the time it would take to really consider all these things. Its especially impossible with cards that originate in the base box, since these cards could not be designed with cards from unpublished expansions in mind (although obviously this isnt the case with this question you have about the FG spell, which is a situation that can arise with just the base).
My point is that while we may have a comforting fantasy that the developers know the absolute and definitive answer, they don't. It is just a security blanket like Lovecraftian sanity, it covers over the unspeakable truth. Actually, you will find that coming from the community which has play tested the game to Yuggoth and back. In fact, I reckon it is no stretch to deduce that Richard and Kevin and gang come to check out what the community are saying when these problems arise in their games!

Edited by dj2.0, 11 October 2013 - 06:09 AM.


#19 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,492 posts

Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:51 AM

not that I am suggesting they should have, more that they really couldn't have, given the size of the project and the time it would take to really consider all these things. Its especially impossible with cards that originate in the base box, since these cards could not be designed with cards from unpublished expansions in mind (although obviously this isnt the caswe with this question you have about the FG spell, which is a situation that can arise with just the base).

 

Thanks Dj for saying this. I couldn't agree more. Point is that guys developing the games and guys answering the rules questions have to cover a *huge* amount of things and develop new games and so on. It's a total mess (if you look in detail at FFG catalogue, you'll notice it's huge. I guess they have more than one thousand titles in stock, between LCG, RPG, BG and Miniature games). On the other hand you have a community of fans playing these games to death. I guess that if you sum up the games people like Tibs, Avi, ColtsFan, Jgt, myself, Dj (any who has been around for some years playing constantly) have played over the years, we pass the 2000 games with ease, which I believe is far more than any of the guys at FFG. And this is why I believe the way these guys see the game, understand its mechanics and its dynamics is far more advanced than any "official" ruling you could have (and this explains also why there is a lot of custom content which is absolutely brilliant and by design superior than the original Heralds / AOs and so on)

This doesn't mean that the guidance offered by Tim or the other friends at FFG is to be despised! But it happened that they answered to some questions in not a proper way. For instance, there is an encounter in the OW sayin' you have to pass a Luck (? don't remember) check to return to Arkham. If you fail, you are LiTaS. In both cases, you close the gate you entered. We asked them if you were allowed to seal, and the first (official) answer was "of course, yes, even if you go LITAS". This was changed in the latest FAQ. Similarly, the latest FAQ states that after losing a Combat Check with a Nightgaunt and be sent in an OW you may immediately cast Find Gate to return to Arkham. This clearly is totally wrong, if you consider that by design when a gate opens under your feet you're delayed to be granted to have at least one OW encounter during a turn. Additionally, combat ends movement, so no way you should be allowed to cast any movement phase spell after the combat is over. Nonetheless, this FAQ offers you the incredible chance to seal a gate in the turn you entered it! It's totally crazy (and totally exploitable! You can totally break the game if your investigators start failing Combat Checks against the same Nightgaunt, and start passing the Find Gate via Carcosan page).

So, to sum this up, an official point of view is vital to the community on many and many questions, but for things that are consolidated through years of experience and about which there is no real bug, I'd go with what the community suggests.


Edited by Julia, 11 October 2013 - 06:36 AM.

  • dj2.0 likes this
We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#20 dj2.0

dj2.0

    Member

  • Members
  • 909 posts

Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:15 AM

Excellently stated, especially the last paragraph, which should be on flashing neon banners in the grey area to the left and right of all posts.


  • Julia likes this




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS