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Fighting Heralds


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#41 Tox

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

I don't see what the 'time' issue would be. There are lots of ways to measure time in the game.

 

For instance, let's say we are playing with the Lurker at the Gate.

 

Plot 1: There has been an increase in people suddenly coming in wealth and power within the town under mysterious circumstances. If Investigators discard, as a group, X number of Clue tokens, then they all gain X Reward and place Plot #2 in Play. If the Doom Track reaches 3 before this happens X Penalty occurs and place Plot #2 in play.

 

If, by the time all the Plot cards have been cycled through, there are more Completions then Failures, or if no Failures, or whatever has occurred, then the Players have defeated the Herald. Or, the Herald actually enters into Arkham to see why none of it's plots are working and to fight or face the Investigators.

 

 

Since I think this path is the most promising on making this idea happen, I'm going to expand on this and try to write an example for the King in Yellow.

First, AOs have anything from 10 to 14 doom tracks. To avoid having yet another component with which to measure time or to keep track of (I first thought about the number of turns, but who wants to make it even more complex?), we're going to use the Doom Track to keep track of the actions of the King in Yellow. Three steps, or plots, will be the arc of the King's "heralding". The first resolves at 3 Doom, second at 6 Doom, third at 9 Doom.

 

First Plot - The Coming of the Madness: the King tries to get people interested in the play "The King in Yellow", which is currently performing at the theater. Posters have started appearing all over town, advertising the play. Investigators can spend money or clues (each clue counts for $1) during Upkeep, that go into a common pool. If by the time the 3rd doom token is added the pool is worth $(number of investigators x 5), they've had success in sabotaging the advertising operations, by covering up or destroying the existing posters. They choose one investigator who draws a random ally. If they didn't manage to pool the $20, raise by 2 the terror level as people start to go mad from seeing or hearing about the play.

 

Second Plot A - His Will Be Done: if the investigators passed the First Plot, the play is moved out of the theater and into the streets and plazas of the city. The investigators pass if, by doom token 6, there are at least 2 Elder Signs on the board, the reasoning being that the sealed locations are immune to the influence of the King's minions. No other reward. They fail if they don't put the 2 seals down, and in that case the terror level increases by 3 as the crowds are exposed to the play.

 

Second Plot B - Between a Rock and a Mad Place: If the investigators failed the First Plot, townsfolk crowd the theaters. To pass, the investigators have to convince the mob (the authorities are in disarray, having being exposed to the play) to scare people away from the theaters, by each being Cursed and pooling at least $(number of investigators x 5, clues can still be used on a 1-1 basis). The mob attacks the theaters, some folks are hurt in the process, but the plays are disrupted. Close and seal 1 open gate (no trophy) but the terror level increases by 1 as the town is shocked by the violence. If they don't manage to strike a deal with the mob, the criminals rampage through town, having being exposed themselves to the play. Close all 3 shops and the bank for the remainder of the game and raise the terror level by 2.

 

Ok, recapping, so far we have:

Plot 1: Pass (draw 1 Ally), Plot 2: Pass (no reward)

Costs: $(number of investigators x 5, clues count for $1)+having sealed 2 gates

 

Plot 1: Pass (draw 1 Ally), Plot 2: Fail (terror level increases by 3)

Costs: $(number of investigators x 5, clues count for $1)

 

Plot 1: Fail (terror level increases by 2), Plot 2: Pass (seal 1 gate, terror level increases by 1)

Costs: All investigators Cursed+$(number of investigators x 5, clues count for $1)

 

Plot 1: Fail (terror level increases by 2), Plot 2: Fail (close shops and bank and increase terror level by 2)

Costs: None.

 

Ok, since this isn't an easy or fast process, I'll write the remainder tomorrow. At least I won't be wasting time if you people don't like the idea or you think it's flawed or unbalanced. I do have some neat ideas for the 3rd Plot :) Let me know what you think :)


Edited by Tox, 13 October 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#42 Dr.Faust

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:12 AM

I like Plot 2, but you should probably specify if the Elder Sign seals that are down have to be made /during/ Plot 2 or if they can be from before hand.



#43 BenEggler

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:33 PM

Hey Tox,

 

I think that in general, that seems like it could be a really fun scenario to play with the game. Honestly though, I don't know if it really works for what I'm trying to do with the Herald mechanic. That adds a lot of complexity that would make eliminating The King in Yellow from the game more tedious than fluid. Having to do those things seems like it would really take a LOT of focus on the part of the investigators, thus detracting them from other things that are necessary in order to win.

 

This idea you came up with basically just makes the game a LOT harder, as if the investigators choose to ignore stopping the play, they are going to get even more terror than they normally would and make the game more difficult. Investigators should be presented with the option of stopping the play without suffering EXTRA consequences if they choose not to. BUT, if they do try to stop the play and fail, then something bad could happen, and if they succeed, then obviously there is a great reward.

 

I think that the idea in general is very good and could probably be tweaked/reworked to better fit the gameplay of the game.



#44 BenEggler

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:46 PM

The theme of TKiY is that throughout the entire game, the play is happening in the background, causing the terror to rise even more than it normally would. People are watching the play, going insane, and causing even more havoc in Arkham. Because of this, I think there should really be one test/series of tests that the investigators can make at ANY point throughout the game in order to shut the play down completely and save the citizens of Arkham from this maddening performance.

 

We would need to come up with a few things:

 

What location on the board is the play being performed?

What kind of test/encounter would the investigators need to go through to stop the play?

What are the penalties for failing to stop the play?

What are the rewards for failing to stop the play?

 

As a reward, obviously eliminating the Herald from the game. Perhaps also resetting the Terror level or lowering it by a set amount, as minds are relieved from the absence of the play?



#45 Avi_dreader

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:09 PM

 

It is so, so, so satisfying to play the game and say "WE KILLED CTHULHU!!! YES!!" It makes me want to tell my friends who don't know about Arkham Horror all about the game just so they can appreciate that feat. Being able to kill/banish/de-summon/destroy the Heralds is like fighting a mini-boss. Who doesn't love mini-bosses? 

 

Heh...  I don't understand final combat victories as killing the AO (certainly not the Great Old Ones).  No...  Just driving them back.  For now.

Anyway, I'm enjoying lurking on this thread.  Good luck working on this guys, lots of interesting ideas here!


Edited by Avi_dreader, 13 October 2013 - 11:18 PM.

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#46 dj2.0

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

The Manley Theatre in Arkham, as far as I know its only playhouse, is located in Northside, near the Newspaper offices.

#47 BenEggler

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:05 AM

The Manley Theatre in Arkham, as far as I know its only playhouse, is located in Northside, near the Newspaper offices.

 

How confused would an Arkham player be seeing on a Herald sheet "Investigators may stop the performance of The King in Yellow by having an X encounter at The Newspaper"? =P



#48 BenEggler

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:07 AM

 

 

It is so, so, so satisfying to play the game and say "WE KILLED CTHULHU!!! YES!!" It makes me want to tell my friends who don't know about Arkham Horror all about the game just so they can appreciate that feat. Being able to kill/banish/de-summon/destroy the Heralds is like fighting a mini-boss. Who doesn't love mini-bosses? 

 

Heh...  I don't understand final combat victories as killing the AO (certainly not the Great Old Ones).  No...  Just driving them back.  For now.

Anyway, I'm enjoying lurking on this thread.  Good luck working on this guys, lots of interesting ideas here!

 

You're most likely correct and I totally understand/agree with that! I still can't stop myself from saying "We killed Cthulhu!" opposed to "We drove him back!". So much more satisfying, haha!


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#49 Tox

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:59 AM

The theme of TKiY is that throughout the entire game, the play is happening in the background, causing the terror to rise even more than it normally would. People are watching the play, going insane, and causing even more havoc in Arkham. Because of this, I think there should really be one test/series of tests that the investigators can make at ANY point throughout the game in order to shut the play down completely and save the citizens of Arkham from this maddening performance.

 

We would need to come up with a few things:

 

What location on the board is the play being performed?

What kind of test/encounter would the investigators need to go through to stop the play?

What are the penalties for failing to stop the play?

What are the rewards for failing to stop the play?

 

As a reward, obviously eliminating the Herald from the game. Perhaps also resetting the Terror level or lowering it by a set amount, as minds are relieved from the absence of the play?

 

I kind of agree with you, it IS kind of complex and maybe too much of a hassle to keep track of (except if we structure it like a deck of cards that are unveiled as the doom track progresses and each Plot is foiled or executed). But I'm thinking about how to let investigator try their hand anytime at all and having them fail/pass. How is it possible under the current game rules?

 

p.s. wait, I think I got it :) Think Dunwich Horror deck: how about a deck for every Herald? It doesn't have to be a deck to FIGHT the herald, each card could present a challenge and a pass/fail condition. Will the investigators risk drawing from the Herald's deck or will they deem it safer to ignore it? Maybe the game could FORCE them to draw from the deck sometimes. Think about it :)



#50 BenEggler

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:14 PM

 

The theme of TKiY is that throughout the entire game, the play is happening in the background, causing the terror to rise even more than it normally would. People are watching the play, going insane, and causing even more havoc in Arkham. Because of this, I think there should really be one test/series of tests that the investigators can make at ANY point throughout the game in order to shut the play down completely and save the citizens of Arkham from this maddening performance.

 

We would need to come up with a few things:

 

What location on the board is the play being performed?

What kind of test/encounter would the investigators need to go through to stop the play?

What are the penalties for failing to stop the play?

What are the rewards for failing to stop the play?

 

As a reward, obviously eliminating the Herald from the game. Perhaps also resetting the Terror level or lowering it by a set amount, as minds are relieved from the absence of the play?

 

I kind of agree with you, it IS kind of complex and maybe too much of a hassle to keep track of (except if we structure it like a deck of cards that are unveiled as the doom track progresses and each Plot is foiled or executed). But I'm thinking about how to let investigator try their hand anytime at all and having them fail/pass. How is it possible under the current game rules?

 

p.s. wait, I think I got it :) Think Dunwich Horror deck: how about a deck for every Herald? It doesn't have to be a deck to FIGHT the herald, each card could present a challenge and a pass/fail condition. Will the investigators risk drawing from the Herald's deck or will they deem it safer to ignore it? Maybe the game could FORCE them to draw from the deck sometimes. Think about it :)

 

 

The idea of a deck for each Herald sounds like it could potentially work. Just like Epic Battle Cards, it would make dealing with the Herald different every game, which could keep things fresh. The only thing I'm really adamant about is not FORCING the players to have to deal with this mechanic, even if they use it. The Herald itself already presents so many challenges and makes the game significantly harder for the players. This mechanic needs to be an option, and only an option, that allows the players the chance to remove the Herald from the game, where if they fail for attempting this option they are THEN going to suffer an additional penalty.



#51 Dr.Faust

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:29 PM

Unless that Herald is the Lurker. BD



#52 Avi_dreader

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

 

The theme of TKiY is that throughout the entire game, the play is happening in the background, causing the terror to rise even more than it normally would. People are watching the play, going insane, and causing even more havoc in Arkham. Because of this, I think there should really be one test/series of tests that the investigators can make at ANY point throughout the game in order to shut the play down completely and save the citizens of Arkham from this maddening performance.

 

We would need to come up with a few things:

 

What location on the board is the play being performed?

What kind of test/encounter would the investigators need to go through to stop the play?

What are the penalties for failing to stop the play?

What are the rewards for failing to stop the play?

 

As a reward, obviously eliminating the Herald from the game. Perhaps also resetting the Terror level or lowering it by a set amount, as minds are relieved from the absence of the play?

 

I kind of agree with you, it IS kind of complex and maybe too much of a hassle to keep track of (except if we structure it like a deck of cards that are unveiled as the doom track progresses and each Plot is foiled or executed). But I'm thinking about how to let investigator try their hand anytime at all and having them fail/pass. How is it possible under the current game rules?

 

p.s. wait, I think I got it :) Think Dunwich Horror deck: how about a deck for every Herald? It doesn't have to be a deck to FIGHT the herald, each card could present a challenge and a pass/fail condition. Will the investigators risk drawing from the Herald's deck or will they deem it safer to ignore it? Maybe the game could FORCE them to draw from the deck sometimes. Think about it :)

 

I don't think it's too complex.  It's just a question of presenting it in a less complex ways.  Perhaps a list of triggers.  And then perhaps putting flavor text on a separate card.  If you mix the two, then yes, it'll be difficult to read and track.


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#53 Tox

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

 

The idea of a deck for each Herald sounds like it could potentially work. Just like Epic Battle Cards, it would make dealing with the Herald different every game, which could keep things fresh. The only thing I'm really adamant about is not FORCING the players to have to deal with this mechanic, even if they use it. The Herald itself already presents so many challenges and makes the game significantly harder for the players. This mechanic needs to be an option, and only an option, that allows the players the chance to remove the Herald from the game, where if they fail for attempting this option they are THEN going to suffer an additional penalty.

 

 

It could force them, on very rare occasions, to draw from the deck, but of course they would still get the chance to pass the plot the game is forcing them to confront!

 

Avi, yes, it is kind of confusing but I'm sure that if I sat down and concentrated I could write the same stuff with far fewer words :) But now I kind of like the Heralding Deck solution more, I think it's more elegant and not quite that different from what we're used to. Lots of flavor text on each card to set the mood for the herald's plotting in the background, plus a simple set of instructions for the pass/fail conditions. Maybe at the 3rd/4th/5th "pass", the herald could be banished. Of course, you could meet the "fail" condition for each card instead, and get the penalties - usually nothing major, but with a couple of "heavy" penalties hidden in the deck, like maybe empowering the Herald (think it's bad enough that Dagon only adds 1 DOR token? How about 2? Or how about one additional Blight every time a shop closes?).






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