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Fighting Heralds


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#1 BenEggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:21 PM

As much as I absolutely love, love, love Arkham Horror, the only thing I feel that is truly missing from the game is the ability to fight Heralds other than The Dunwich Horror. The Dunwich Horror wasn't originally a Herald when it came out, but I know that was changed with Miskatonic.

 

Heralds obviously impact the gameplay significantly and make the game much harder for the investigators. How cool would it be to have a token for each Herald that is placed at a specific location on the board at the beginning of the game? The investigators could make an attempt to kill the Herald in order to eliminate those particular negative effects and get an awesome reward for doing so, such as receiving an item of their choosing or maybe removing a doom token from the doom track.

 

Are there any fan made rules or mechanics out there that introduce this idea and allow for Heralds to be fought as a sort of mini-boss fight like Dunwich?


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#2 Julia

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:53 PM

Ben, please, don't hate me for what I'm about to say, but really, you don't fight the Dunwich Horror Herald either. The Dunwich Horror was conceived before the "Herald era" (no DH Herald in the DH box!), with the King in Yellow Herald being the first in line. The DH Herald arrived a while later, in digital form to be downloaded from this site and later on it had a paper incarnation with MH. You can have games with the DH boards in and no Herald and you have the DH arriving in Sentinel Hill, and you can have games with the DH Herald and no DH in play. So, the starting hypothesis is wrong.

 

This said, yes, I'd love to have some bigger nastier tougher monster to eviscerate and treat like an XXXL Mi-Go :)


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#3 BenEggler

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you use the DH Herald sheet it says that you must use the DH board along with it. So, that makes it quite possible that you actually will fight the Dunwich Horror at some point in your game. Because you can use the DH herald sheet and actually fight the DH on the board, this makes the DH and the Dark Pharaoh the only heralds you can actually fight in the game.

 

Regardless, I think it would be an amazing mechanic to have ALL the Heralds actually be present on the board,when using them for your game, as in the DH Herald requiring you to use the DH board. Perhaps there could be other ways for the other Heralds to come out on the board. For example, when drawing Act I, maybe The King in Yellow appears on the board somewhere and causes extra havoc to make way for Acts II & III. Then perhaps killing The King in Yellow eliminates the play all together and KiY Mythos cards and effects are ignored for the rest of the game.


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#4 Schwaig

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:41 PM

I totally like that idea.



#5 jackman51

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:52 AM

Probably would force a change to some investigators and their PS since some sort of help to counter the effects of a Herald but sure Ben I wouldn't mind being able to somehow remove the threat permanently. It should be expensive though.



#6 Julia

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:48 AM

Probably would force a change to some investigators and their PS since some sort of help to counter the effects of a Herald but sure Ben I wouldn't mind being able to somehow remove the threat permanently. It should be expensive though.

 

And that's why I made my first post. If you defeat the Dunwich Horror while playing with the Herald, you do not discard the Herald from play.  Same for the Dark Pharaoh. One thing is the monster, another the Herald, whose effect remains in play regardless of the number of times the monster appears on the board.

 

So, when you're actually fighting the DH, you're fighting against a monster. A tough one, but still a monster.

 

Sorry for being pedantic, but first of all it should be clarified what exactly is the objective to pursue: creating some tougher / nastier monsters that appear on the board under special conditions (something like: "when the DOR hits 4, place Dagon on Devil Reef; he doesn't move, but when Crescent monsters move on black, if Dagon is still on the board, after the normal movement for all monsters is solved, place three monsters at DR and a monster in every other aquatic location of the board") that can give you some sort of reward if defeated (for Dagon: "reset the DOR track") OR are we talking of special conditions to met to remove the Herald sheet from the game (which I cannot say enough, could be an interesting option but has never been done before for any Herald)?


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#7 jackman51

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

I'd be in favor of either/or actually. Your Father Dagon idea is actually pretty cool either way. But if anyone is thinking about an actual physical confrontation with Dagon and/or Hydra with the idea of permanently eliminating the DOR track for that game if you win then the severest penalty for losing the battle would have to be employed. IDK instant wake up of  an even stronger AO or even instant game defeat. Can't say I'd like this idea anyway. Also pedantic--sorry :P  :lol:  

 

But your first thought Julia with Dagon I think could work well-I like it.


Edited by jackman51, 09 October 2013 - 10:54 AM.


#8 Julia

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:53 AM

Yes, I absolutely agree, if you want to try your fate, you should also be ready to lose badly. So, for Dagon: if you are defeated in combat, the AO instantly wakes up, with a number of extra doom tokens equal to the number of DOR tokens on the DOR track at the moment of the awakening (badly worded, I'm in a hurry, but you should get the idea)

 

Actually, you gave me the final idea for a project I had been working on since 2011 (Esoteric Order of Dagon Institution). Thanks buddy!


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#9 jackman51

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:00 AM

Hmmm...I'll look forward to seeing it then. Yeah DOR increase seems good.



#10 BenEggler

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:48 PM

I like that Dagon idea a lot, Julia. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about! That would add so much flare to the Heralds.

 

In a way, Heralds are something between Monsters and the AoO. As investigators, we get to fight monsters AND the AoO. It only makes sense that we should be able to fight something that is between them.

 

Maybe there would be some Heralds that you cannot permanently kill, such as the Dunwich Horror, since it deals with the DH Track. And if Dagon and Mother Hydra dealt with the DOR track, then maybe they couldn't be permanently killed, either.

 

Although, I REALLY, REALLY like the idea of permanently killing a Herald, with it being an incredibly tough, relentless battle with horrible consequences if you lose. That just sounds so much fun and you would be helping out the investigators SO much if you were able to kill him/her.

 

With Lurker at the Threshold, maybe if you kill him, you no longer have to draw Reckoning cards for the rest of the game. And if you fail your combat check against him, anyone with power is devoured. Or perhaps you must draw and play 3-5 Reckoning cards immediately. Just a simple idea, but that could be awesome.

 

Killing the King in Yellow could also eliminate all active Blight cards from play and maybe lower the Terror Level by one or even reset it to zero. But maybe losing the fight would mean you have to draw 1-2 Blight cards and put them in play.



#11 Dr.Faust

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

For the Lurker, I would almost say increase the Terror Level by the number of failures in your combat roll. Essentially, it would be punishing you for over-prepping and having a lot of power, since you are essentially biting the hand that feeds and I don't think the Lurker would appreciate being attacked when it's trying to 'help'.


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#12 BenEggler

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

For the Lurker, I would almost say increase the Terror Level by the number of failures in your combat roll. Essentially, it would be punishing you for over-prepping and having a lot of power, since you are essentially biting the hand that feeds and I don't think the Lurker would appreciate being attacked when it's trying to 'help'.

 

That sounds like a good, absolutely terrifying idea!



#13 Tox

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:11 PM

I think this is a great idea. I could even see it implemented in a new expansion :) Unique ways to confront each herald (perform a warding ritual to repel Ghroth, physically battle Dagon and Hydra, battle the King in your mind), multiple outcomes for each fight (destroy the herald, weaken him, make it stronger etc), some kind of Plot cards for each of them...lots of potential.


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#14 BenEggler

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:54 PM

I think this is a great idea. I could even see it implemented in a new expansion :) Unique ways to confront each herald (perform a warding ritual to repel Ghroth, physically battle Dagon and Hydra, battle the King in your mind), multiple outcomes for each fight (destroy the herald, weaken him, make it stronger etc), some kind of Plot cards for each of them...lots of potential.

I'm glad you like my idea! :)

 

Maybe as an Arkham family and community we should come up with some rulings/stats/tokens to use for each Herald! I think that would be an awesome, collaborative project. Maybe FFG will see and get inspired to get off their butts and make another amazing addition to this fantastic game. =P


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#15 jackman51

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:44 PM

It'll be interesting to see the stats people will assign these Heralds if someone wants to fight them.



#16 dj2.0

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:31 AM

Just some random thoughts...A Herald, as Julia has pointed out, is not a monster but rather a particular set of conditions that on the whole are intended to empower and/or quicken the Ancient One. As such, Fight is only one possible line of attack. Investigators should be able to use Lore, Will, Speed etc, based on the particular condition being attacked, depending on what it is. And, rather than call for Skill tests, the best designs imho are those which force you to exchange one resource for another or to make tactical decisions which result in some kind of trade off between a negative and positive.

An idea that occurs to me is to have missions and tasks added to the Heralds, things the team can do as a group (unlike normals tasks and missions which belong to one character), which can undo or mitigate the effect of Heralds.  Some of these missions and tasks could even relate to a player who has Join the Winning Team, enabling them to make things worse for the team as they go about gathering the allies by completing tasks and missions on the Herald. Tasks and missions could be randomly determined and hidden from everyone but the turncoat. This obviously turns AH into a competitive game, which is not for everyone, but the potential is there and the idea does not have to be applied to JTWT.


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#17 Julia

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:35 AM

I like this idea a lot, Dj. After all, if you look carefully at the game's structure, we have similar recurring things: Rumors, Tasks and Missions, Personal Stories are quite similar in concept, even if they could result in many and different things. Adding a set of Plot Cards specific for each Herald than can be completed as more complex Personal Stories could be a great idea. Additionally, these Plots could be structured so that actually they enforce the team work!


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#18 dj2.0

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:49 AM

Exactly. Like personal stories but attached to Heralds and for the whole group.

#19 Dr.Faust

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:49 AM

I think the Plot cards sounds like the best idea so far that doesn't involve outright fighting. Now, that doesn't mean there couldn't be monster tokens--Nyarl is a perfect example of having a Herald AND Monster Token, after all. But perhaps that could be just one more of the conditions or Plots? Like a Spawn Monster that works like, say 'The Color out of the Space'. It lingers and lurks until it's destroyed and the group can then proceed to the next Plot card.



#20 BenEggler

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

DJ, I disagree. Yes, Heralds, looking at them on a purely surface level basis, are essentially rules and conditions to help wake the Ancient One up. However, looking at them from the Mythos and Story angle, they are actual beings that exist in Arkham that are impending the progress of the investigators. These creatures and beings are roaming Arkham and causing these terrible things to happen. Because of this, it would make perfect sense for there to be tokens and potential combats to stop these beings so that the horrors they are creating are put to a stop.

 

I like the idea of plot cards and eliminating a Herald from a game doesn't necessarily have to be a FIGHT or COMBAT check. Tulzscha, for example, could be destroyed through some sort of chant or spell that the investigators must make at a specific location. Perhaps Tulzscha has stats/powers to impair this check from the investigators, but it wouldn't be a combat check.

 

All the other Heralds, however, seem like malevolent beings that are somewhere in Arkham and could potentially be fought. Just like The Dunwich Horror, it is a creature that sits still and can be sought after to defeat, while causing problems when it is drawn to move.

 

There could be other Heralds that sit still, as well. Such as Tulzscha and maybe Ghroth. Maybe Father Dagon and Mother Hydra can ONLY move through Aquatic locations, making their combat location make sense. The Black Goat of the Woods could stay in the Woods (makes sense =P).

 

I like this discussion! DJ, your idea of having group based tasks/missions is also really good. That is something that I think would be perfect for Tulzscha, Ghroth, and probably The King in Yellow.






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