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Is D2ed really well balanced?


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#61 MadBat

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:32 PM

Speaking of balance, I don't know if some of you have had the pleasure of testing the 2 new heroes and classes...

I was OL and my mate played the trapper and the prophet.

We did the mini quest of trollfens using the rules that go with it (4xp start, gold...)

 

On paper, the prophet looked like a nice character and I felt like I had my chances as OL.

In reality, it's the most game breaking character ever.

The main reason is not that he can heal for free (doesn't cost an action, doesn't cost fatigue...), but the fact that he can boost all adjacent heroes with 2 fatigue/turn.

He does that by giving the token, taking it back, giving it again and having the skill that adjacent heroes get the boost also.

This means +2 hp and -2 fatigue for each hero him including (hence the "for free") and it doesn't cost him an action, just an exhaust. So he could still dbl attack or move and search...

 

Basically, what happened thanks to the boost is that the trapper was using his traps each turn for free and was also using the attack after placing trap for free also (2xp skill).

 

This means per turn, 2 traps I had to manage or blow up and huge dmg bonuses.

In avg, the trapper hit my monsters for 7-9dmg by doing an avg dice roll, using 2 surges for a +3 on his bow (easy with green dice), +1 from his heroic skill, +1 from the adjacent trap, +1 pierce from the trap next to monster...

suffice to say my best act 1 monsters melted in a single hit.

 

I've played many games were I was against strong combos, but heroes always needed to rest sometimes to get fatigue back.

Here, this combo allows for insane speed running with insane dmg and HP regeneration.

 

I only managed 3 downs on the whole campaign and that was because the heroes could split so they could grab all treasures.

Never have I felt so weak and powerless as OL.

It was not enjoyable at all.

Now, to make matter worse, I had decided to try Basic II and that's probably the biggest mistake.

It SUCKS. The dash copy is so weak it's the 1st card to discard. And the flurry is ok but weaker than frenzy.

Uncontrollable power has no value at all, you can't use it to force a miss, just spend a surge on fatigue dmg instead of dmg boost. That's quite weak. That deck also has a single trap to start with (grease) and it doesn't immobilize.

 

This play session was the most disappointing ever and I've learned 2 things from it:

-Basic II is weak and situational.

-2 player games are totally unbalanced depending on the class combo played.

 

If anyone has had more success against the 2 new classes, please share your advice.

Regarding the Basic 2, I doubt anyone will convince me of it's usefulness.



#62 JorduSpeaks

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:38 PM

@MadBat:

 

I think your group was playing the two new classes incorrectly.  Many of the skills you mention require that the hero exhaust the card.  Exhausted cards cannot be used.

 

As for the Basic 2 deck, I've found that this deck is most useful when the group is well balanced, with one player of each class, whereas Basic 1 is best when the party has obvious deficiencies in certain stats.  Additionally, Basic 2's value comes from having so many cards that replace themselves when they fail to take effect.  The ability to have a search token run away from the person searching it is pretty nice, too.



#63 MadBat

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:11 PM

@MadBat:

 

I think your group was playing the two new classes incorrectly.  Many of the skills you mention require that the hero exhaust the card.  Exhausted cards cannot be used.

 

As for the Basic 2 deck, I've found that this deck is most useful when the group is well balanced, with one player of each class, whereas Basic 1 is best when the party has obvious deficiencies in certain stats.  Additionally, Basic 2's value comes from having so many cards that replace themselves when they fail to take effect.  The ability to have a search token run away from the person searching it is pretty nice, too.

And where did u read that they didn't exhaust and played this more than once per turn?

I've read all the cards before letting them play the new classes.

They played correctly. Exhausted the 2 cards (giving, taking and giving to other hero) and still recovered 2-3hp and 2 fatigue each per hero turn.

 

Regarding mimic, this indeed is the only good card in basic 2.

I just never got lucky and didn't get it when I needed it.



#64 griton

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:01 AM

I just had a flash idea for a new class - the Druid (because I can't think of anything better): summons "Straw Man" tokens to the map which must be attacked by monsters if legally able.  They take a hit and go "poof" but serve their purpose in distracting monsters. =)

 

They also can cause a lot of damage, but that damage is immediately discarded as soon as the straw man has been dispatched. You might be able to win a fight with a straw man, but you can't do it only part way. ;-)



#65 griton

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

I've read all the cards before letting them play the new classes.

They played correctly. Exhausted the 2 cards (giving, taking and giving to other hero) and still recovered 2-3hp and 2 fatigue each per hero turn.

 

Knowing what the cards are / say would probably help with this. I think it came from a misunderstanding that one card was being used twice (give the insight token), and another card allowed for taking it back in between. It sounds like one gives the insight token, and the other card takes it back and gives it out again. (Though if it's to "another" hero, it may be that you can't give it to the hero that had it in the first place, but not knowing what cards you're referring to is difficult; they aren't on descentinthedark.com and some of us don't have Trollfens yet.)



#66 MadBat

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

It's like you said, he has to give it to another hero... himself.

Basically, the prophet gives the token to the stalker, so stalker gets -1 wound and -1 fatigue token, but so does the prophet tanks to his passive that says adjacent heroes get the same bonus (and thus he casted this for free, getting his one fatigue back).

Then he uses the skill that says "pick the token and give it to another hero" and simply gives it to himself.

Hence he gets the bonus (casting this for free again) and so does the stalker.

Now, he can even discard the token for a total of 3 wounds healed at no cost (not even a single action).

 

I can live with the free heals of the whole party.

But I can't cope with the mass fatigue reduction.

Fatigue is was made the heroes think carefully about their actions. Spend it for extra moves or a big attack...

Spend an action to rest and there goes the OL with his extra attack from a monster that could have been killed.

 

Well this is completely negated thanks to the prophet class. First thing he does on his turn is exhausting the cards that just got refreshed (unless he has to place himself first to be adjacent to other heroes).

This mechanic also has the added value that the heroes never split as they get to big of a bonus from the prophet.

Hence it's even harder to separate and kill them.

 

I fell in total despair, when he got a ranged weapon... as from then on, he didn't even need to move to crush me with his rune.

Why can runes be equipped by everyone anyway...

From that point, I lost 2-3 monsters a turn, could usually reinforce 1, couldn't depend on traps thanks to his accessory and simply couldn't go for objectives as in trollfens, most objectives (2 out of 4 quests) for the OL are completely dumb: survive 9 rounds!!

I did win the 1st quest as it was not a survive thing, but a race and 2 heroes vs 4 group of monsters is totally unfair for the heroes. They needed to split to even have a chance at winning the race and well the prophet doesn't work well if split.

 

Makes me wonder if this was playtested at all (probably only with groups of 4 heroes)

Insane.


Edited by MadBat, 04 November 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#67 Cursain

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:05 PM

It's like you said, he has to give it to another hero... himself.

Basically, the prophet gives the token to the stalker, so stalker gets -1 wound and -1 fatigue token, but so does the prophet tanks to his passive that says adjacent heroes get the same bonus (and thus he casted this for free, getting his one fatigue back).

Then he uses the skill that says "pick the token and give it to another hero" and simply gives it to himself.

Hence he gets the bonus (casting this for free again) and so does the stalker.

Now, he can even discard the token for a total of 3 wounds healed at no cost (not even a single action).

 

I can live with the free heals of the whole party.

But I can't cope with the mass fatigue reduction.

Fatigue is was made the heroes think carefully about their actions. Spend it for extra moves or a big attack...

Spend an action to rest and there goes the OL with his extra attack from a monster that could have been killed.

 

Well this is completely negated thanks to the prophet class. First thing he does on his turn is exhausting the cards that just got refreshed (unless he has to place himself first to be adjacent to other heroes).

This mechanic also has the added value that the heroes never split as they get to big of a bonus from the prophet.

Hence it's even harder to separate and kill them.

 

I fell in total despair, when he got a ranged weapon... as from then on, he didn't even need to move to crush me with his rune.

Why can runes be equipped by everyone anyway...

From that point, I lost 2-3 monsters a turn, could usually reinforce 1, couldn't depend on traps thanks to his accessory and simply couldn't go for objectives as in trollfens, most objectives (2 out of 4 quests) for the OL are completely dumb: survive 9 rounds!!

I did win the 1st quest as it was not a survive thing, but a race and 2 heroes vs 4 group of monsters is totally unfair for the heroes. They needed to split to even have a chance at winning the race and well the prophet doesn't work well if split.

 

Makes me wonder if this was playtested at all (probably only with groups of 4 heroes)

Insane.

Who was the character playing the Prophet arch-type?  If it was Elder Mok, then don't allow him to be in any campaign. He's very OP and if he ever gets the staff of light he can heal himself for 8Fatigue and 8Health a turn.  He's absolutely broken and his heroic just adds insult to injury.



#68 MadBat

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:25 PM

 

Who was the character playing the Prophet arch-type?  If it was Elder Mok, then don't allow him to be in any campaign. He's very OP and if he ever gets the staff of light he can heal himself for 8Fatigue and 8Health a turn.  He's absolutely broken and his heroic just adds insult to injury.

 

it wasn't mok. We played the new classes with their respective new hero.

And Mok is a joke next to Augur Grisom.

His feat adds insult to injury by giving every hero in los 2 health and 2 fat regen... for free (no action again).

Should I ever play a hero, I wouldn't pick any1 else


Edited by MadBat, 04 November 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#69 rfisha

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:49 PM

The game balance is working for me, we played the interlude 'Pilgrimage' in LoR and I lost to the OL by 1 turn.  Classic game!

 

I am playing a band of pretty average heroes (Widow Necro, Logan Treasure Hunter, RayHart(?) Champion,  Ashrian(?) Spirit Speaker) maybe that's why we are getting good balance.  I made a couple of bad moves as well and was severely punished!

 

Augur does seem overpowered, but I guess there are more racing quests overall than survival ones.  Have you tried running away if you have to survive 9 turns?  Do you have CK monsters - kobolds could be handy because there are so many of them.



#70 Cursain

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:21 PM

 

 

Who was the character playing the Prophet arch-type?  If it was Elder Mok, then don't allow him to be in any campaign. He's very OP and if he ever gets the staff of light he can heal himself for 8Fatigue and 8Health a turn.  He's absolutely broken and his heroic just adds insult to injury.

 

it wasn't mok. We played the new classes with their respective new hero.

And Mok is a joke next to Augur Grisom.

His feat adds insult to injury by giving every hero in los 2 health and 2 fat regen... for free (no action again).

Should I ever play a hero, I wouldn't pick any1 else

 

Nah, Mok beats Augur Grisom imo

Give Mok 4 experience points, make him a prophet with Soothing Insight, Forewarning, Battle Vision and All Seeing

 

Mok could give the Insight Token to his partner twice a turn technically.  This would grant his partner 4 health and 2 fatigue a turn and heal Mok for 4 Health and 2 Fatigue a turn + once per encounter discard an OL card of his choice from the OL's hand.

 

That doesn't include any phat lewt the two acquire during the mini-campaign.



#71 Surreal

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:37 PM

Is there any link where I could see all the Prophet skills? The previews had almost all but they are missing 2.



#72 Cursain

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:07 PM



Now, to make matter worse, I had decided to try Basic II and that's probably the biggest mistake.

It SUCKS. The dash copy is so weak it's the 1st card to discard. And the flurry is ok but weaker than frenzy.

Uncontrollable power has no value at all, you can't use it to force a miss, just spend a surge on fatigue dmg instead of dmg boost. That's quite weak. That deck also has a single trap to start with (grease) and it doesn't immobilize.

 

This play session was the most disappointing ever and I've learned 2 things from it:

-Basic II is weak and situational.

-2 player games are totally unbalanced depending on the class combo played.

 

If anyone has had more success against the 2 new classes, please share your advice.

Regarding the Basic 2, I doubt anyone will convince me of it's usefulness.

You are completely wrong about Basic 2.

 

============================================================

 

It contains six awesome cards that only work effectively when you have a mage AND a warrior in the party.  That is a huge mistake on your part.

 

Mental Error requires a warrior to go off reliabily

Blinding Speed x2 requires a warrior to go off improved

Uncontrollable Power x2 is far more effective against a mage.

Grease Trap requires a mage to go off with a stun

 

Couple those three of those cards with Befuddle.....and you own.

 

Sorry but when you're playing a 2 hero game, and neither is a mage or warrior, you go Basic 1, absolutely no questions asked.


Edited by Cursain, 04 November 2013 - 07:10 PM.


#73 MadBat

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 02:42 AM

 

 

 

Who was the character playing the Prophet arch-type?  If it was Elder Mok, then don't allow him to be in any campaign. He's very OP and if he ever gets the staff of light he can heal himself for 8Fatigue and 8Health a turn.  He's absolutely broken and his heroic just adds insult to injury.

 

it wasn't mok. We played the new classes with their respective new hero.

And Mok is a joke next to Augur Grisom.

His feat adds insult to injury by giving every hero in los 2 health and 2 fat regen... for free (no action again).

Should I ever play a hero, I wouldn't pick any1 else

 

Nah, Mok beats Augur Grisom imo

Give Mok 4 experience points, make him a prophet with Soothing Insight, Forewarning, Battle Vision and All Seeing

 

Mok could give the Insight Token to his partner twice a turn technically.  This would grant his partner 4 health and 2 fatigue a turn and heal Mok for 4 Health and 2 Fatigue a turn + once per encounter discard an OL card of his choice from the OL's hand.

 

That doesn't include any phat lewt the two acquire during the mini-campaign.

 

I have no idea why you insist on Mok. His skill is indeed insanely good, but only profits to him.

Augur will have every hero 3 spaces around him (him included) get a heal if an attack deals no dmg and his feat boost hp and stamina for all heroes in los. He's the better party member.

He also has more HP and stamina compared to Mok.

 

Regarding Basic 2, you make it seem as if there aren't any cards dealing with healers or scouts and that just confirms my point. It's a weak deck vs less than 4 heroes as without the added bonus, the cards aren't worth it at all.

 

Even if the 2 heroes would have been warrior and mage (which no one sane would go for in a 2 heroes game...), I'd still pick basic 1 for reliability.

 

With this deck, you'll also lose a lot of flexibility and everything you do will be predictable.

If you need a boost on an attack to kill their healer, well no luck, your mental error is efficient against a warrior and the heroes kinda now you'll be very reluctant to use it against anything else.

Same with every skill. It's very situational and you'd have to get extremely lucky for the correct hero archetype to be in the perfect position for you to use that skill with added bonus.

The deck would have been more viable if a different bonus affected 2 different archetypes.

For ex. Grease could have stunned the mage and increase to 5 the moves of a warrior...

 

Pity they didn't think of that.



#74 MadBat

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:00 AM

The game balance is working for me, we played the interlude 'Pilgrimage' in LoR and I lost to the OL by 1 turn.  Classic game!

 

I am playing a band of pretty average heroes (Widow Necro, Logan Treasure Hunter, RayHart(?) Champion,  Ashrian(?) Spirit Speaker) maybe that's why we are getting good balance.  I made a couple of bad moves as well and was severely punished!

 

Augur does seem overpowered, but I guess there are more racing quests overall than survival ones.  Have you tried running away if you have to survive 9 turns?  Do you have CK monsters - kobolds could be handy because there are so many of them.

I have some CK monsters, but not those from Well and Altar.

Besides, kobolds would be a very bad idea because the first 2 usually deal no dmg (only blue dice, hard to surge and even with surge, you'd need at least 2 monsters around hero to get a decent boost) and Augur's heroic would make all heroes get 2 hp back on no dmg dealt.

 

Kobolds would serve to slow down a bit, but with 4 kills a round, I doubt the heroes will mind.

It'd still take a miracle to last 9 rounds. And wasn't the only use of kobolds to abuse that magus spell that got nerfed?

 

Also regarding fleeing,  there are elements in the quests preventing you to go that route.

Like heroes can save survivors from a cart in one quest or force your harpy master to come straight at them alone to get insta killed next round.

It's thus not advised to run...

There is a quest that allows you to increase the speed at which the OL can win, but it involves leaving a monster on the sinking

cage. I tried grouping my monsters there, but the heroes made short work of them, even Bol Gorreth.

I did make a placement mistake with my zombies on that quest though. I could have lasted one more turn... and it still wouldn't have been close.


Edited by MadBat, 05 November 2013 - 04:14 AM.


#75 rfisha

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:24 AM

Right.  I assume you have tried blocking and gathering around the objectives etc, which it sounds like you have, so maybe it is just an overpowered combination.  Like you stated as well, Basic 2 may not be the best choice either.  Maybe its best to avoid this combination next time!



#76 AltWren

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 07:29 PM

Is 2e well balanced?  Nope, not even close.

 

Monster groups are not balanced.  Large > Medium or Small

Heroes are not balanced.  Some choices are just downright better.

Quests aren't balanced.  They'll favor one side or the other, depending on the version of them you're playing

Mechanics aren't balanced.  A hero death = -1 action, whereas some maps the OL can't even reinforce one monster

OL vs. Heroes isn't balanced.  Heroes have far more customization and growth than the OL's single card addition.

 

Hey all.  Don't mind me.  Just checking back in, seeing if there was any new errata yet so put this game back in our rotation.  I guess not.  Carry on.



#77 Robin

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 01:41 AM

Is 2e well balanced?  Nope, not even close.
 
Monster groups are not balanced.  Large > Medium or Small
Heroes are not balanced.  Some choices are just downright better.
Quests aren't balanced.  They'll favor one side or the other, depending on the version of them you're playing
Mechanics aren't balanced.  A hero death = -1 action, whereas some maps the OL can't even reinforce one monster
OL vs. Heroes isn't balanced.  Heroes have far more customization and growth than the OL's single card addition.
 
Hey all.  Don't mind me.  Just checking back in, seeing if there was any new errata yet so put this game back in our rotation.  I guess not.  Carry on.

Your deep analysis is so convincing that I only can say: farewell, and thanks for tolerating us morons to like this game. Carry on.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#78 TheHunterBoy

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:00 AM

 

Is 2e well balanced?  Nope, not even close.
 
Monster groups are not balanced.  Large > Medium or Small
Heroes are not balanced.  Some choices are just downright better.
Quests aren't balanced.  They'll favor one side or the other, depending on the version of them you're playing
Mechanics aren't balanced.  A hero death = -1 action, whereas some maps the OL can't even reinforce one monster
OL vs. Heroes isn't balanced.  Heroes have far more customization and growth than the OL's single card addition.
 
Hey all.  Don't mind me.  Just checking back in, seeing if there was any new errata yet so put this game back in our rotation.  I guess not.  Carry on.

Your deep analysis is so convincing that I only can say: farewell, and thanks for tolerating us morons to like this game. Carry on.

 

I'm definitely one of those morons!

:D



#79 JorduSpeaks

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:42 PM

I've long felt that the game favored the heroes.  Recently, I decided to try playing as a hero.  We played the Shadow Rune campaign, and the Overlord won a total of one encounter.

 

However, the plot decks seem like they'll bring in more balance, and even if they don't there's a potential house rule to add more balance to keep one side from getting completely steamrolled.  At the beginning of each Act 2 quest, each side receives a number of threat/fortune tokens equal to the number of quests they have lost.  I haven't playtested this house rule, yet, but it seems like it should help keep quest outcomes closer and more tense.  It also makes thematic sense, in that each side becomes more determined as they become more desperate and events move toward the climax.

 

Edit:  If you're doing The Shadow Rune, you may wish to add a reward to the first quest to keep players from intentionally bombing it.  I suggest letting the winning side start the next quest with threat/fortune equal to the number of heroes.


Edited by JorduSpeaks, 14 November 2013 - 03:13 PM.


#80 griton

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:48 AM

Edit: If you're doing The Shadow Rune, you may wish to add a reward to the first quest to keep players from intentionally bombing it. I suggest letting the winning side start the next quest with threat/fortune equal to the number of heroes.

The biggest advantage of winning the first quest is second quest choice. A lot of people just see the quest rewards and say "Eh, it doesn't really matter, so the heroes should just go for the search tokens." They incorrectly assume that all quests are created equal.

If the overlord wins, he should definitely focus on picking a quest with a Relic that tends to be difficult for the heroes and try to keep the relic out of the heroes' hands. Cardinal's Plight is a good one for this.

If the heroes win, they should pick a second quest that has more treasure to be found but no relic so that if they don't win, it's not that big of a deal. Fat Goblin is a good one for this, especially with more heroes available to clog up Splig's escape route.

In general, heroes are relatively weaker during the first part of an act and stronger during the last part of an act. The overlord's growth from new cards is pretty small, especially early on, and he gets his big power jump right at the start Act II when the monsters upgrade.

Edited by griton, 15 November 2013 - 10:49 AM.





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